Personally, I'm very interested in Mr. Winer's book as I'm sure it will be an informative and entertaining read.

As for using ARC and how it improves one's mixing environment, I'm very much of the mindset that it can certainly be of some benefit, but I also understand and agree with Mike's statements to the fact that it's only addressing one part of the overall problems a room can create.  This is not opinion, it is fact based upon tried and true science.  My only real difference is that I could care less what Danny or anyone else choose to use, choose to spend their money on.  If they see a benefit in using a product for some level of correction that's entirely their choice - who am I to tell someone else they are not seeing benefit form that purchase.  I don't think Danny, or anyone else (with some level of understanding) thinks it's the magic bullet to every single room issue, but if it improves his mixes in any way, only he can decide if the price was worth the level of improvement.

Personally I've debated purchasing ARC, but have held off and truth be told I'm leaning towards doing a more thorough job of treating my room when I tear it apart this spring for a room reworking and refinishing, but that's my choice and it only impacts me.  My choice is certainly easiedby the fact that I own my house, I have no plans on moving, and I'm interested in the DIY aspect of attempting it, who knows it could prove disastrous. 

If the concern is all the marketing speech that gets tossed around by manufacturers, I'd be a fool to believe it doesn't happen in the acoustic treatment world just as much as in the software solution world - it's an individuals responsibility to be an informed consumer and to weed through marketing speak and to find the truth (many times someplace in the middle).  Like I stated, there are very few magic solutions, but like so many other things in life, if it has no impact on my choices, I'm really not that concerned about the choices others make for themselves, and using ARC is one such thing.

Back to Mr. Winer's book - I'm very much looking forward to it and hope to garner some nuggets of information I may otherwise not know or at a bare minimum gain a greater understanding of things I do already do know.

As always, individual mileage may vary.

mike_mccue



"Can anyone tell me why or why not?"

Yes, if there's too much bass and you turn it down... that's a good thing.

If there's too much 4027Hz and you turn it down... that's a good thing.





Now having said that, if you take a further step and look at an RTA and see that the peaks and nulls are flapping around like an animated party light the idea may sink in; "How does a specific number like 4027Hz relate to all this flapping?"

I'll give you a hint too... you want to use the RTA on high detail and fast response so you actually see it flapping around.

A lot of folks leave the RTA on sluggish response and are gratified to see the animation suggest that every thing is smooth and stable. That's not helpful.

After you have that going you might realize... "hey the reason I take so many ARC measurements is that it sort of averages out the measured peaks and nulls".

Which is good.

But, when you are done averaging, and you get to that average number, the peaks and nulls are still flapping all over the place... so the stuff I said was good up at the top... it's less good once you figure out it's only helping part of the issue and only part of the time.

Then you might ask, "hey is ARC dynamic? Is it chasing down the peaks and nulls in real time or is it just predictive?"

At this point you'll have enough info to appreciate why some people say things like "corrective EQ can only help in the frequency domain... it is useless in the time domain."

ARC literature, However, suggests that it has some time domain adjustments, so perhaps it has. I can comment that what ever they may be are constrained by a basic inability to act on individual drivers. Does Arc provide true biamp control over woofers and tweeters? That can be an effective way to introduce timing adjustments in an attempt to nullify positive and negative peaks so as to stabilize the room response. I think ARC may have some features like that but it doesn't really have enough acoustical control of the drivers to really work the idea. You get the 2.1 speakers and maybe so timing adjustments on some part of each one's signal.

The only practical way to control the time based peaks and nulls is to suck up any of the extra energy bouncing around the room.

The way to do that is well known, but most people do it other ways.

The idea of using pre cut, inexpensive industrial supply high density rock wool panels for easy to make DIY bass traps was popularized by Mr Winer in his do it yourself pages. All the other guys that sell the bass traps these days learned from him or someone who learned from him, Mr. Winer will tell you that all the similarly built bass traps are all pretty much the same.

With all that in mind I find it difficult to consider that post #8 was never reconciled with something like a sincere "whoops, I guess I shouldn't accuse people of ranting, self serving their bass trap store's special interest, or being ignorant of what they are talking about." type of mea culpa.


best regards,
mike

Thanks for being so patronsing Mike.

Here's a basic fact, I know you like those, it's based on a hypothesis though.

McQ has a 'correct' room.  Danny uses ARC.

I have a track I'd like mixed professionally, I'd heard Danny's results, I'd heard McQ's results.

I'm think I'm happy enough having heard the products from both of you and all set to get Danny to work on it.  It's not scientific, no, it would definitely be my preference though.

With all that in mind I find it difficult to consider that post #8 was never reconciled with something like a sincere "whoops, I guess I shouldn't accuse people of ranting, self serving their bass trap store's special interest, or being ignorant of what they are talking about." type of mea culpa.

Considering you posted that after the destructive and smug dross you've plastered on this thread, in what appears to be a directly low attempt to discredit Mr Danzi in some way, the only type of 'mea culpa' explanation I'm surprised that hasn't occured here yet is the one from you.

I'll let that sink in as slowly as is comfortable for you.  Choose whatever room you prefer to base yourself in for reflecting on ideas, you'll have one in mind that's been measured for that purpose I'm sure.

btw I like the idea of room correction too and I'm very interested in Ethans book.  Post #34 contains the most sense for me on the entire thread, it's pretty much where I sit in on the debate.  It doesn't ridicule anyone from a 'superiority' viewpoint like yours seems all the world to look like it's doing to me here.



HTH

I've had a chance to get my head straight about this stuff. Sorry this post couldn't be shorter, but it is what it is. Read it or don't.

First off, James and Jonbuoy, thank you for the kind words and the support. I'm glad two people were strong enough to dispute Mike and bothered to get involved. Though I'm completely capable of fighting my own battles, it's a breath of fresh air when a few people chime in to let me know that I'm not totally out of my tree on this. Thank you both sincerely.

Mike: I can't believe that you would bring our past dirty laundry into this thread and then pull your same old passive aggressive behavior techniques that you've always done in the past. Bash me in one breath, praise me in another. Was that right for the thread? Let's sort you out once and for all since you opened up this can of worms.

You know a lot about things yet know nothing at all. The forum needs to be educated about you and your attempts to be the all knowing master of nothing audio. The things you know about, you show proof on whether they be pictures or actual physical things. You mention great audio projects and other things that you have done and no one ever hears them. I clicked on a link in your signature one time that had tunes that sounded like overly-sequenced electronic music. What can I say? I'd think someone of your stature and intense knowledge of the field would have something that is a good representation of what you're about and have done? Yet, this is not the case and I'm not the only one who has commented on your music/production not doing the talking like your mouth does. I can provide work files as well as video in real time of anything I have ever done.

You claim to know about high gain guitar in today's times, yet show forth examples of old amps and effects that wouldn't get high gain of today unless you sent them to someone to be modded. You've never showed any skill in the rock realm, have never presented any ideas to "prove" you can or have ever done it, so there's your scientific proof. You sir, speak for the sake of a voice 8 times out of 10.

I highly doubt you've ever done anything remotely close to the production I created in my version of "Countdown to Insanity" (which was done in sections and not very serious at all on my behalf as it was just a sketch) so before you try to bring up all I have is DanziLand to my credit, concentrate on outdoing what was done in that little song and physically do it all yourself. Go big or go home....and provide proof while you're at it. :) Then I can post up some of my current works as well as client work so that you can hear what I can really do. Yeah, I have work files and can provide video for them as well since "proof" is what this is all about. Take a good look at yourself. "Proof" and you don't belong in the same sentence.

Whatever happened to your high gain sound crusade? Yeah...like everything else you spew garbage on, this too fell by the wayside. Voice for a voice is all you'll ever be to anyone on this forum that has a clue. We all know how things go with you. You start a confrontation, you get put in your place and run away or try to act like a nice guy and play it off.

Everything with you goes in one ear and out the other when you're found to be wrong so you then evade the issue, act cool again for a few months, and then you bring up the past, forget to take your meds and then try to annihilate a person when you really don't have a leg to stand on as a musician or an engineer. Stick to camera and wood working dude, no one will EVER dispute your talents there.

You mention my post in post 8 as being so wrong. Philip mentioned his thoughts about Ethan and ARC. Bitflipper then chimed in with "That's the crux of his criticism of room equalization: it's oversold and over-hyped. I share that view." I've known Dave's stance on ARC since I posted a thread in the software forum praising it. I have no problems with the man or his beliefs. But read his quote again...oversold and over hyped.

That is NOT my experience and I mentioned it. Again, someone not trying ARC as it was delivered by IK and calling it oversold and over-hyped that sells room correction raises flags to me. Sue me for feeling that way. That's not a shot at Ethan as the dude can mix his butt off and is a fantastic musician and speaker as well as a teacher. I hope his book sells millions and have no animosity against him or Dave...let the record show.

My problem is with negatively commenting on something that was not physically tried while selling things that actually DO compete with the product. I'd be willing to bet there are as many people that are still not happy with their room correction as there are those that were not successful with ARC. Prove me wrong and use science if you must. I can jot down a list of names of people that went nuts with room correction and come to me for advice because they are still not happy...trust me.

Dave then goes on to say: "A good room doesn't need ARC, either."

This may be true, but what about your monitors? Anyone thinking that monitors will not need any tuning at all even in a good room is mistaken, yes? ARC helps this problem. It may not cure it, but for me it's helped me enough to where I'm not having any problems with anything and I don't need that ugly room crap messing up MY HOME. In my studio's, I have both ARC and room correction. Do I notice differences mixing in one or the other? No. Sue me for not noticing a major difference or call me lucky.


Does that mean others will have the same luck as me? Absolutely not, but I can only speak for me and the many rooms I've used it in that give me the same results. I voiced my truth having used both room correction as well as ARC. I have that right as someone that USES BOTH. And that's all I have to say to you, Mike....hopefully for the rest of the time we both visit this forum.

Steve Corey: Sorry ARC didn't work for you. However, if you read THEIR instructions, that could be why. I have my own way of doing the correction and will gladly share my step by step procedure with you via pm if you still have ARC and you would like to try it again. My instincts tell me based on your forceful post that you'll decline anything I'd have to offer...so that's fine too. But if you happen to change your mind, I'll gladly forward what has worked for me.

To everyone else: At the end of the day, it was never my intent to derail or deface this thread. I've participated in a few threads with Ethan in the past on this subject, saw ARC was mentioned again here and because I have not shared the same negative results, I posted about it. Everyone else seems to be able to speak their minds on something whenever they want. Sometimes forum members embrace them and deal with it, other times they go on a crusade to make someone out to be a bad guy like what's happened to me here. I'm not a bad guy. I spend my time on here trying to help out people that may have struggled in the same areas as me.

If you like what I've had to offer, have gotten good things from the posts and novels I've shared, that's all I've ever wanted. This little ARC plug works for me regardless of whatever negative comments come up about it. While everyone worries about nulls and all this other stuff, I put a project together and mix it and it always comes out to my liking and sounds good on every system I play it on. Isn't that success even if some of it may be flawed and it works for me?

Not to name names here to involve anyone else in this, but is James wrong too whether or not his tests show ARC is a piece of garbage? He claims it works and has helped him tremendously. Is bapu clueless and haven't his mixes improved as well? Is Philip not a fine engineer never letting us down with incredible work? If you ask these gentleman if ARC has made a difference, you better believe they will say it has regardless of what they have learned along the way.

You can't fix what you can't hear correctly. It doesn't matter how good you are as an engineer. Misrepresentation is just that. When you can hear the right stuff, you end up with a balanced mix even if you use no effects or compression. Without ARC I can't get that anywhere near acceptable.

The worst things about my mixes will be they will be subjective to people as are all mixes done by everyone. But you won't hear blatant errors due to false monitor representation or my rooms messing things up. My artistic take is the thing that may not be YOUR thing. You may hate my style, my instrument choices, my voice, my playing and my mix. But if you listen to my stuff for what it is other than what you think it should be in your vision, you'll not come out of it thinking I'm a clueless idiot.

This is no different than buying a piece of gear that may work for some people, fail for others really. The difference is, I'm just a normal man that tried it and it worked regardless of what may be physically wrong on the science end.

ARC Failures: If someone bought ARC based on my recommendation, used MY instructions in the correction process and still failed, I'm deeply and sincerely sorry it didn't work out for you. If I'm ever remotely close to you in my travels or you live close to me, if you feed me and let me crash at your place, I'll gladly show up and attempt the correction procedure myself for you free of charge until we've exhausted everything. That's how much I believe in this plug and that's how strongly I feel about relieving people of the stress caused by audio misrepresentation. It's a horrible position to be in if you really love this field. One that I can only describe as the clouds parting after a hurricane has passed.

Letting it all die including me: Excuse my extreme passion and constant bragging about this plug. But if you've never tried it and suffer from some of the things I've mentioned in this thread and others, it's worth a shot. If not, correct your room in whatever way you see fit. I'll not comment again or try to help you. I'll keep my dumb little secrets as well as my experience to myself from here on out. Just beware of the "Mike's" on these forums. They always do more harm than good and never have anything to show or represent why you should listen to them other than their big mouths.

I not only have a big mouth, but I can and will back up every thing I've ever mentioned if I need to. That doesn't make me better than anyone else. It makes me able to talk the talk and walk the walk with pride whether you like what I do or not. I'm not a good engineer, I'm not a good musician...but I like to think I deliver consistent results that are acceptable. I can't say the same about a lot of people on these forums that feel the need to speak with a sharp tongue that provide less than fair results or nothing at all. You all know who these people are as it's always the same ones, isn't it? I forever rest my case.

-Danny

Sigh.

A number of people might want to rethink their posts here.

Sigh.

Danny Danzi said to me: Sorry ARC didn't work for you. However, if you read THEIR instructions, that could be why. I have my own way of doing the correction and will gladly share my step by step procedure with you via pm if you still have ARC and you would like to try it again. My instincts tell me based on your forceful post that you'll decline anything I'd have to offer...so that's fine too. But if you happen to change your mind, I'll gladly forward what has worked for me.

Whoa, there. That's just calling me closed minded. Where have I ever indicated that I'd "decline anything [you'd] have to offer"? I'd be happy to try again with ARC with whatever variations of measurements anyone suggests. Feel free to PM them to me. But please don't call me closed minded. I'll admit to being "forceful" but I'm forceful based on my research and experience. You are too, Danny, you're very "forceful". We're free to disagree, but don't call me closed minded.

I am very disturbed by your last comments Danny.  It is not right at all to admonish Mike in this way.  There are many here that do listen to him and find his ideas and input helpful.  Not all the time, but that goes for all of us.  

I also truly respect your talent and what you do pretty much speaks for itself. 

However, no one should feel that bad mouthing another is right and even justified. Here are your words: "Just beware of the "Mike's" on these forums. They always do more harm than good and never have anything to show or represent why you should listen to them other than their big mouths." 

Disagreements, different points of view, heartfelt responses are good.  Outright telling this forum to be wary of all "Mike's" is way over the top IMO.  

I have openly voiced my respect for you and Mike.  I have apologized to you when you thought I was attacking you in some way.  Now, I can't stay silent when you now are in a personal attack mode against someone I respect.  

I hope you can see this comment objectively.  So I am as kindly as I can asking that you think about how bad it sounds to belittle a fellow musician publicly in this way.  Cake asked us not to go this way too just recently.

Rimshot

Ethan - are there any plans for a Kindle edition?

Steve
Whoa, there. That's just calling me closed minded. Where have I ever indicated that I'd "decline anything [you'd] have to offer"? I'd be happy to try again with ARC with whatever variations of measurements anyone suggests. Feel free to PM them to me. But please don't call me closed minded. I'll admit to being "forceful" but I'm forceful based on my research and experience. You are too, Danny, you're very "forceful". We're free to disagree, but don't call me closed minded.

Steve, I never once said you were close minded...so please don't put words in my mouth. I said you were forceful in your post because you mentioned "I have ARC, I didn't like it. And yes, I followed the instructions to a T, and took lots and lots of measurements. When Harman compared various room correction systems, Audessy came out on bottom as sounding the worst. And sorry, I don't have a reference so by all means throw this post out."
 
That to me sounds like you gave it your best shot, didn't think too much of it and it wasn't for you. That also sounded to me like you were answering me when I said "if people go by the instructions" and it seemed like "yeah, I did that..it sucks so throw this post out". Hardly inviting for me to feel the need to offer any advice if you're me reading that, ya know? Instead, I offered anyway and merely said that if you weren't totally done with it, I'd gladly share what I've done. When people have tried things, and they have not been successful, sometimes they don't want to hear someone else saying "well try it my way and see what happens". You seemed done with ARC and I figured nothing I said would change that. But I never once mentioned or implied you were close minded. I'll pm you the info right now.

Rimshot: I guess it's ok for Mike or anyone else to air out dirty laundy in a thread that happened months ago that had nothing to do with the topic at hand? He's allowed to politely tell me to shut up about ARC? Dude please remain disturbed. I will not take any crap from him or anyone else on this forum. There was no reason for him to talk the way he did about me in these posts. If Ethan had a problem with me, he would have said something. He can fight his own battles if he felt the need or was offended. It was none of Mike's concern to attempt to silence me from my truth, my opinion or my experience. I didn't need to hear about things I said about Mike in the past or feel the need to justify that I hold true to them today. Maybe he's pulled the wool over your eyes, but not mine. I respect you too and thank you for your respect, but you disrespect me when you interfere with me when someone has treated me unfairly and I defend myself in the way *I* feel is best. Please prove to me that what I have said in Mike's regard is untrue and if you do, please quote and show proof on the things I've mentioned that HE brought into this thread that I defended myself on. I'll spell it out once more.

He's not a rock guitarist

He wouldn't know how to get a high gain sound or play with a high gain sound unless he bought a Mesa or had one of those classic amps modded.

He's never shown any of us anything remotely resembling a full production that is worth listening to The Gospal according to Mike.

He has no right to challenge me or bring up my music in this thread where he referenced an album of mine. 

He brags about his work yet we never hear it because...well, it's client classified. I don't want to hear it now so don't get any ideas. I could care less about it and don't believe a word he says.

He has no right to attempt to silence me about ARC anymore than someone has the right to tell Ed, Reece or anyone else what to say or what not to say in the coffee house. When you don't like something, you don't read it. End of story.

He starts confrontations with several members on this forum and runs and hides after the firestorm only to return as "the nice guy" that turns the other cheek. Only to return again to start when the timing is right for him. One day the mods will do something to him before he chases all the good people in this forum away. There was a time when he was a gift here...what happened, I have no clue and I really don't care now.

Need I continue? There is more! You get the idea though...unless of course you only wish to read what you want to read. It's not your fight bro...don't get involved.

Not one time did you make a mention to Mike that he was out of line for attacking me like he did in this thread. Please don't play favorites bro. Because he brings stuff up and I defend myself, I'm wrong? Please...don't upset me any more than I am. That's a favor you can do for me because you're only making things worse. I defend myself to anyone that deserves it and wishes to attack me that isn't handled by a moderator. All I did was speak the truth, there was no belittling. Do me one more favor...take a look at my post 8 that he mentioned and see how old it is.

Why did Mike feel the need to address it now and air out our dirty laundy in the process when James and Jonbouy questioned him on his actions? Because he's a controversy lover and has done this with several posters and has gotten away with it for years. It's not going to happen with me. If it didn't bother Ethan to where he commented further, it shouldn't bother Mike because it's none of his business. Jonbuoy and James felt I was attacked too as well as an inbox full of forum members that took Mike's post the same as I did. The nice guy that I am, I begged them to refrain from getting involved or you'd find out who else doesn't think too much of him. Trust me, people are sick of him and so am I.

-Danny 

I am interested in reading Chapter 10.

As recently as just a few months ago I was asked to justify statements I made about equalizers such as Sonitus FX EQ. I have stated that it has very slight yet audible phase cancelling artifacts but that I still think it was an excellent and very usable FX choice.

A couple of guys, Brundlefly and DrewFX made some passing comments that suggested that what I said probably wasn't accurate. I wasn't accurate.

At some point I became aware of articles written by Mr. Winer that explain why it is impossible to expect to be able to hear any phase shifting caused by EQ systems. I learned the phase artifacts I was listening too were actually part of the recording and not added by the EQ system at all.

I never thanked Drew or Brundlefly for suggesting I go a bit further with this... but I am thankful.

I think Chapter 10 is going to cover the explanation about EQ and phase shift as well as a bunch of other stuff I still hope to understand better and I thank Mr Winer for making information such as this so freely available.

best regards,
mike

Interlude... (open letter to Danny Danzi).

For what it's worth and as an objective observer, I have always enjoyed reading you Danny. And even though I may not always agree with a particular method/approach to mixing you have proposed/discussed, you've made me think about things more often than not. Don't undervalue/underestimate your many contributions in these forums and especially the enthusiasm you have for the craft. They are invaluable to us..., the silent majority. A silent majority that's smart enough to see through the fog and make their own conclusions as to what's what. Keep bringing it on Danny, I know I'm loving it. 

Disclaimer
I may come across as being a tad pretentious in speaking for the silent majority, but I do have my hand on their pulse. That's my story and I'm stinking to it.