Hey all,

So moving on from my X1 Vs Protools http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?high=&m=2550770&mpage=1#2550856 testing I have another Test but need help.  I realise this might be a long shot but maybe there's a kind soul out there who might have a few mins and do me a huge favour.  I'm doing some serious research before I start any new projects on how I can get more separation, clarity, space, air, warmth, and all that good old analog stuff I read and hear about so often.  

I do use Slate Digital's VCC and many VST plugs like "Vintage warmer, Tube amps" etc to help me but for the life of me when I A/B my ITB mixes with the big names, I just can't compete.  So this leads me to believe that running a simple test project through a true Hybrid system (e.g Lynx AES16e,  Aurora 16 etc) will shed some light if this is indeed the road I need to go down in my quest.  I just have to "hear" for myself but can only wish for such a system.


So what I have is a simple 8 track (Loop) project at 100bpm 1 bar in length.  Its just an 9mb X1 CW Bun file.  No plugins used.  Just a couple of vol and pans in this raw project.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/71053556/X1HybridTEST.cwb



I'd so much appreciate if anyone who has such a system might run this project as is through their gear as they would normally and send back the 1 bar loop.  I hope that it would simply be a matter of selecting each of the 8 track outputs and send them out to the analog summing world.  No mastering or processing.  Just what you hear is what you get kindof thing.  I can then A/B it with the ITB version.

You would be doling me such a big favour as I've been in the dark about this subject for way too long.  Anyway if you would please let me know.

Thanks for any replies!


Sorry forgot to add:  Please keep files at 44khz 24bit

Good luck - it will be interesting to see what you think.  Esp. if you post the different files.

I wouldn't think that 8 track summing would make too much difference - even the summer believers say 16 or more is the answer.  Me, I think if you capture at the source and then send out a mix through a high-end stereo comp etc. would be what you are after.  My opinion, for what it is worth.

@

Agreed. There's no way that just running your mix through a summer is going to add all that to content that doesn't have those charactersistics already. It's not magic. The reason you can't compete is because you aren't A) as good a mixer as them B) probably don't have nearly the tracking skills or front end gear they do a C) don't have the compositional skills they do. That's where those things are going to come from, not from some magic box.

It is an interesting point. I believe the reason your mixes right now may not sound as good as the best released material is more to do with your engineering and less to do with outboard gear and summing being used externally.

Once a time perhaps the finest analog gear reigned supreme but because it was invented and built we are able to model it so well digitally now. You definitely can create a huge fat sounding analog mix with all the qualities you desire and all ITB as well. You have got to just keep persisting and getting better and better at doing that.

I have come right over from the very analog world to ITB operations now and I must say not only has the sound remained great it has improved as well. Better transients, lots of things. Noise has gone now. And yes digital may have been a bit cold sounding at day one but it has really evolved from there to what we have now. And that is the ability to take on any persona we want it to be which is even better. It can be transparent but also it can sound like something else. That is cool and clever. Analog gear cannot do that, it is stuck on one sound.

I was a full analog/digital hardware synth guy too but now I don't have any and the plugins are sounding so great it is just incredible. And what about new synths that have never been heard before like Alchemy, Prism or IRIS. Their sound quality is breathtaking and it's getting better every day. If you think plugins cannot match the finest hardware you are just wrong.

I am reading more and more everyday about the blind A/B tests they do in reviews with plugins vs hardware and mix consoles being modeled and all and a lot of the time even great ears are not picking the difference. I have just bought a Pultec EQ for a no brainer for $30 and I am amazed at how great it sounds. It sounds bloody fantastic actually. This plug transforms how a track sounds immediately! I have used the real Pultec before, not a lot but I remember how nice it made things sound. This plugin is so much like it. I use to own Roland Dimension D chorus. I loved it but sold it. There are ones going around here for $800! How stupid. Who would pay $800 for a Dimension D. I got the plugin from EmptyRoomSystmes, a company that was mentioned in these very forums and thanks very much to that person! It sounds killer and exactly like I mean exactly the same as the original. (superior to UAD,apparently!) The Plugin is bit better. The crappy analog noise has gone and it sounds a little nicer than the original on some things with transients. (you can always put the noise back in if you really want it! and you can EQ it to sound identical to the original as well)

So now it's down to crafty engineering practices again. Let's use some channel strips here and there, Dimension on one of the clean guitars, the Pultec over some busses for a final EQ. Some great compressors here and there as well to add glue. Things are starting to sound better. I think you have got to be prepared to actually engineer stuff and stop leaving too much alone with no plugins or anything being done to the tracks. There is always something you can do to make a track sound better even if it's just a little better or a lot better. I am always also for great recording technique giving you a great sounding track to start with too and it's nice at times to use the hi fi approach of minimal degradation to the signal quality if possible.

I think digital can create the entire sound of a complete analog system and also add in parts of the mix in a transparent manner as well not going through anything analog. The digital technology can do it today so why get with the program and get in there and just learn to be a even greater engineer using a medium that is superior in so many ways and is offering the possibilities of sound manipulation on a level never seen before.

Thanks folks but you may have miss understood me.  In my regular projects I do my absaloute best to engineer as well as I can using all the plugins, arranging techniques etc.  I'm no quincy jones but I've been mixing many years.  I usually use sample & softsynths and only record vocals in my studio.

This Bundle project is purposely raw (unmixed) so it will enable me to best test what Analog summing (alone) will do.  I want to test "apples with apples" here.

I started out years ago mixing through a mackie 1404 with my DAW + Hardware synths and recording to CDr and I had that analog seperation especially using the mixers panning.  Since going totally ITB I've always tried to get that back but never manage it.  VCC helps but still lacking the life.

I don't understand what you want someone to do. The cards you mention above are digital cards. So, you just want to go out and then back in? I'd be glad to help. Just don't know what you want. Sorry. I have an RME AIO if that works for you.

I think with all of the digital tools available today, you can emulate "any" analoge sound. And it's mow betta? Because it's in your DAW? And you can "do things to it?" that you can't necessarily in an analoge environment.

Thanks Timidi but I'm not sure if what that card can do.

I'm hoping some1 has a hybrid setup that will give him xtra output selections in SONAR.  So for example:

On the kick drum track, you would route its output to a D/A convertor which then goes to an anolog summing mixer and from there back into A/D into Sonar.  ..and so on with all 8 tracks.  Note* This is done in one recording pass as with such cards they have up to 16ch outputs.


As a cheap way of doing it (SOS's Hugh Robjohns actually suggested this too) I have individually soloed all 8 tracks and ran them separatly through my mackie 1202 and recorded back in Sonar and immediately I notice a difference.  Its cheap but helpful test.  The guitar has a much more seperated pan and theres some more weight in the low end of kick and bass.  I'm not imagining this believe me.  ;>

I would help you but I only have 4 outs on my Lynx Two A. I run that into a Portico 5012 preamp then into a Portico 5043 back into Sonar. So I sum two stereo sets out. I am adding 6 more channels soon with a Lynx Two B but a few months out on that.

Thanks Timidi but I'm not sure if what that card can do.

I'm hoping some1 has a hybrid setup that will give him xtra output selections in SONAR.  So for example:

On the kick drum track, you would route its output to a D/A convertor which then goes to an anolog summing mixer and from there back into A/D into Sonar.  ..and so on with all 8 tracks.  Note* This is done in one recording pass as with such cards they have up to 16ch outputs.


As a cheap way of doing it (SOS's Hugh Robjohns actually suggested this too) I have individually soloed all 8 tracks and ran them separatly through my mackie 1202 and recorded back in Sonar and immediately I notice a difference.  Its cheap but helpful test.  The guitar has a much more seperated pan and theres some more weight in the low end of kick and bass.  I'm not imagining this believe me.  ;>