I always thought that using pre-recorded loops was cheating.  To avoid cheating, one must play the instrument and record the original loop instead.
 
The same could be said for using guitar strummers, bass riffers,  or drum machines.
 
Maybe even playing back samples of a real instrument is cheating ...
 
How about Melodyne, VVocal, or drum replacer?
 
Is using an electronic amplifier cheating?

noynekker
Using Band In a Box (yes I have it) you're only cheating yourself if you intend to create unique and original song ideas . . . if you use it to create commercial jingles and elevator musak . . . it's just business as usual.
I tried to use it as a creative tool to generate song ideas many years ago, but it never lead to anything memorable.
When I have used it to create in a jingle based business environment, well, let's just say . . . it payed for the cost of the software.

I'm having trouble reconciling your statement that BIAB is cheating "if you intend to create unique and original song ideas."  I would think that because of the very definitions of "unique" and "original" that you couldn't cheat to get there.
 
using BIAB to create a unique and original song is one of the main reasons I use it!  typically, my workflow is like this:
I hear a melody and maybe a hook in my head
I figure out the notes on a keyboard for that hook
I then go to BIAB and start inputting chords which would work with that melodic structure of the hook.  
I then create the rest of the chord structure around that hook and build it into a song using BIAB.
I now have a backing track for the song.
I import those tracks into Sonar from BIAB
I use Sonar to provide the backing for me to add vocals, keys, and then (for the last 2+ years), send it to my friends over the internet and they record bass, vocals and guitar against those BIAB created backing tracks.
 
the finished result doesn't keep any of the BIAB tracks in it - it's all played and sang by the 3 or more of us and mixed by me (for my songs) in sonar.
 
that's just one way to use BIAB.  I also use it for backing tracks for live gigs where I can't play all of the instruments myself and don't have enough other band members to help.
 
I also know of at least one other guy on these forums who uses BIAB to create songs and he plays all of the guitar parts and sings the vocals, but the rest of the recording is usually BIAB.  the results he gets are quite good- in fact good enough that he's gotten royalties from TV spots.
 
BIAB is not just for creators of MUZAK.  You just have to understand how to use it as the tool it is.

Beagle

noynekker
Using Band In a Box (yes I have it) you're only cheating yourself if you intend to create unique and original song ideas . . . if you use it to create commercial jingles and elevator musak . . . it's just business as usual.
I tried to use it as a creative tool to generate song ideas many years ago, but it never lead to anything memorable.
When I have used it to create in a jingle based business environment, well, let's just say . . . it payed for the cost of the software.

I'm having trouble reconciling your statement that BIAB is cheating "if you intend to create unique and original song ideas."  I would think that because of the very definitions of "unique" and "original" that you couldn't cheat to get there.
 
using BIAB to create a unique and original song is one of the main reasons I use it!  typically, my workflow is like this:
I hear a melody and maybe a hook in my head
I figure out the notes on a keyboard for that hook
I then go to BIAB and start inputting chords which would work with that melodic structure of the hook.  
I then create the rest of the chord structure around that hook and build it into a song using BIAB.
I now have a backing track for the song.
I import those tracks into Sonar from BIAB
I use Sonar to provide the backing for me to add vocals, keys, and then (for the last 2+ years), send it to my friends over the internet and they record bass, vocals and guitar against those BIAB created backing tracks.
 
the finished result doesn't keep any of the BIAB tracks in it - it's all played and sang by the 3 or more of us and mixed by me (for my songs) in sonar.
 
that's just one way to use BIAB.  I also use it for backing tracks for live gigs where I can't play all of the instruments myself and don't have enough other band members to help.
 
I also know of at least one other guy on these forums who uses BIAB to create songs and he plays all of the guitar parts and sings the vocals, but the rest of the recording is usually BIAB.  the results he gets are quite good- in fact good enough that he's gotten royalties from TV spots.
 
BIAB is not just for creators of MUZAK.  You just have to understand how to use it as the tool it is.

Thanks Beagle, lots of great insight here . . . I'm glad you're able to use BIAB in your songwriting approach, and the way you've described how you do it makes sense, but that's just not how I create ideas . . . and I should qualify that the version of BIAB that I have is an older version . . . so, I went to their site and saw that they have very much improved the software since the days when I used it. I just don't think I can throw any more money into upgrading it, since the way I come up with ideas myself works very well in Sonar Platinum, with the very full toolbox it contains.
 
I haven't listened to your music, and don't want to judge how "original" or "unique" it is . . . and the thread title use of the word "cheating" may be a bit extreme. Truth is, when I go hear live music, or listen to the radio and TV these days, it's not very often I hear something original or unique, and when I do . . . it really stands out, I get excited, such that I want to find out more about the artist, and how (and why) they came up with the idea for the song.
I even want to find out where to buy it, to support them.
 
My disconnection is that I can't believe great and magical song ideas start with software.
Great and magical recordings and mixes most certainly come from software.
 
 
 
 

noynekker
 
My disconnection is that I can't believe great and magical song ideas start with software.
Great and magical recordings and mixes most certainly come from software.

Great and magical starts with talent.  I don't think anybody that buys a hit song cares how you wrote it or what software you used to record it.

abacab

noynekker
 
My disconnection is that I can't believe great and magical song ideas start with software.
Great and magical recordings and mixes most certainly come from software.

Great and magical starts with talent.  I don't think anybody that buys a hit song cares how you wrote it or what software you used to record it.

If we plunk "talent" into the equation, well, talent by definition is "a natural aptitude or skill" . . . so if you only have a talent for manipulating software, then you might not be able to crank out the hits ?
"I don't think anybody that buys a hit song cares how you wrote it or what software you used to record it."
You're probably right, perhaps only musicians care about that kind of thing.

Just wondering how many hit songs have been written in BIAB. I could be missing something... or perhaps that's Diane Warren's secret weapon?
 
Is there an equivalent for hit lyrics?

S.L.I.P.
I wrote a song, and hired a bunch of musicians to play it... Is that cheating? 

Depends on the "musicians". Joe Satriani? No. Milli Vanilli? Ya.

noynekker
I haven't listened to your music, and don't want to judge how "original" or "unique" it is . . . 

In my interpretation of that sentence you just did.
 
It seems your gold standard for a piece of music is it must be "original" or "unique" by your decree. Borders on condescending IMO. Just curious, were you one of those session musicians who decried the advent of synthesizers?
 
Believe it or not many of us here just want to take our hobby/passion to fruition by any means possible. Being a simple minded bass player who still plays guitar at the level in which I transitioned (~3 years) and one who pokes at a MIDI keyboard from time to time, tools like BIAB, EZKeys, guitar strum engines and EZDrummer2 Song Arranger are heaven sent even if those parts untimely get replaced by online collaborators. Did I "cheat" to get to that end (even if in the final version I used some BIAB Real Tracks, i.e. actual parts played by actual musicians). By the offered definition of cheating I would say no. Whether someone else thinks I am (loosely interpreted as) cheating, is of no real concern to me.
 
So, in all fairness I applaud you that you don't feel any of these types of tools help you in your search for musical nirvana. Carry on as it were. Peace.
 

bapu

noynekker
I haven't listened to your music, and don't want to judge how "original" or "unique" it is . . . 

In my interpretation of that sentence you just did.
 
It seems your gold standard for a piece of music is it must be "original" or "unique" by your decree. Borders on condescending IMO. Just curious, were you one of those session musicians who decried the advent of synthesizers?
 
Believe it or not many of us here just want to take our hobby/passion to fruition by any means possible. Being a simple minded bass player who still plays guitar at the level in which I transitioned (~3 years) and one who pokes at a MIDI keyboard from time to time, tools like BIAB, EZKeys, guitar strum engines and EZDrummer2 Song Arranger are heaven sent even if those parts untimely get replaced by online collaborators. Did I "cheat" to get to that end (even if in the final version I used some BIAB Real Tracks, i.e. actual parts played by actual musicians). By the offered definition of cheating I would say no. Whether someone else thinks I am (loosely interpreted as) cheating, is of no real concern to me.
 
So, in all fairness I applaud you that you don't feel any of these types of tools help you in your search for musical nirvana. Carry on as it were. Peace.
 

 . . . no condescension intended
I don't think you're a cheater.

 
Is it considered cheating for you to want to move forward in your music ?
Is it considered cheating to sit there looking at a brand new blank open project in your favorite DAW of choice with a glazed look on your face and after what seems like a mini eternity you decide to give up right there on the spot ?
Who got cheated that time after having quit before even starting ?
What do you tell yourself when you think you know the truth ?
Could an aspect of the truth also be this ?
The Muse went out on an All Muse's Party Night a few weeks ago with all her other Muses friends and hasn't been back to pay you a visit ever since ?   it sure can feel like that happens sometimes right ?  
 
When that type of thing happens to me I may end up firing up BIAB . Then I will play my guitar over one chord just to let off a little steam ...
here's the evidence of one of those nights ..Elevator Music Alert , don't say I didn't warn you
https://soundcloud.com/gu...wilson/late-night-tele
 
 
If using BIAB can get a person back on track and into being productive again with their music making ,
It ain't cheating in my book ...
 
Kenny