Cheating? I read that Al Jolson thought at first that the amplifier was cheating and remarked about Frank Sanatra "That boy will never make it, he sings like a sissy". The article went on to explain back before amplification, vocal quality was mostly determined by how loud a vocalist was. The amplifier changed everything, but many considered it cheating. When multitracking was first done by Les Paul it was considered by many cheating. When synths first came out it was the new cheat. I've never used BITB, but I would not hesitate if it helped in the creative process. IMO the question is it cheating is as simple as, as long as you follow the EULA of the software of course not, that's why they sell it.

Starise


  Guitarhacker you do really well with the method you have to work with your material. I don't think the question is, Can it sound good?

Yeah it can sound good. 

Jonbouy and munmun must take a similar tack. Could you make the music sound as good without BB? 

NO. I don't play all those other instruments.

 
 One big concern I had was that sometimes I'll get a rhythm or a tune in my head that might not line up with a template and a template might actually destroy the idea or the feel.

With almost 3000 different styles I'm sure you can find something that works. 

          If I'm into a strict genre' then maybe it would suffice. I have had the same thing happen with drum loops that don't fit. To fall into                 BBs templates isn't necessarily bad, but I can see the tendency to fall into that system because it is easier by far than fleshing out            an original backup track. 

 I'm not knocking you for using it and I am ,I'm fact, considering the use of it for templates but I don't want to get lazy with it either. 

Yes, it would be easy to get really lazy musically. 

  ......... I'm not saying BB is a lack of quality or inferior but I am questioning how far I would be willing to accept its use in my tracks.

I'm willing to accept the tracks that fit the song and make it a better song. 

yorolpal


Like Strike and Mods post attest...thinking of this sort of stuff as "cheating" is heading down a rabbit hole to begin with. Make music...and/or money...and don't fret over the details. Our self delusion is our best friend. If we all had to face up to just how much we all are charlatans we'd probably jump off the nearest cliff.

  I guess the word "cheating" might have been the wrong way to describe what I intended to say. Maybe "alternate production techniques" would have been more appropriate. Cheating made for a more interesting discussion though;-)

  I didn't intend to get anyones dander raised,in hindsight if I were using BB and someone thought it was cheating,then maybe I might get a little riled.Sorry guitarhacker,jonbouy. No harm intended there. I do like lively debate(please don't confuse that with ignorant feuding and aggressive bullying,name calling,insulting and the like).

  The white elephant here is that most all music software could be viewed as "cheating" I guess. If a persons main goal is to play instuments well than maybe a focus on modern "alternate" production techniques isn't necessarily the best place to be unless said person is using the software as a kind of teacher in learning new chord structures or playing along with a better instrumentalist.

 In the old days, good musicians got together in a decent studio and made music. I still value playing with other musicians and would always prefer the real thing over the alternatives,but also understand we ain't in the 60's/70's no mo.Not everyone has access to the playing live or with others.

 IMO if in your world music is a product then by all means get it out anyhow anyway and never look back. If you value the social aspect of music,view music as a thing to be manicured and improved with no timelines or money demands then you would want real people interacting with the music(or maybe not).If your music carries a weighted message with a real importance,obviously you would want it to be something more than a commercial jingle.

 Live session musicians very seldom are there to share in any kind of vision. They come,they play,someone writes them a check(its great ain't it). This is why so many studio recordings sound so sterile compared to a band that shares in the excitement. So you can even have a similar thing happening with real people playing.

 The question is, For lack of a better description- Does the soul come through in your music? .................Hmmm...I wonder if Bethoven and Mozart would have used Sonar or BB? There would have been no need to use any of the local talent.I think the Kontakt samples might have pushed them over the edge,and where would we be then?

 Chances are that they would have never been famous because music like theirs would have been a dime a dozen if peasantry could afford the same software.

It seems that some of us are using BIAB to create a template upon which to work.  I want to emphasize that is not the only way to use BIAB.  I have 2 strict rules with this program:

- if I play the instrument then no BIAB allowed
- BIAB drums not allowed.  They lack a certain something.
- no templates (the groove and feel in my head takes priority)

So against this backdrop I typically find a groove close to what I have in my head.  I care less about genre.  Sometimes inserting one genre into another can be quite interesting.  Check out my song "The world has lets its children down."

The piano track is BIAB.  I remember splicing together a number of piano genres in BIAB (one for verse 1, one for chorus, one for verse 2) etc to get to something varied and interesting.  Also the drums and bass were already recorded.  So BIAB needed to fit into my music and not the other way around.  The piano part was pretty enough where I gave it an honourable mention at the end of the song.

well, think of a more advanced version of this, being something akin to what Trent Reznor has done with Nine Inch Nails


i mean, he's basically using a very sophisticated and hands on version of band in a box.

I use BB, because in my local area, the availability and level of musicianship of most of the locals is lacking the level of professionalism I would like to have in my songs.  Hiring studio musicians is out of the question due to the number of songs I write and the cost of using their services. Until I begin to make a substantial income from music, that is just the way it is. 

For example, a buddy, whom I used to attend church with,  a bass player and owner of MC2, and I , had spoken multiple times about recording. It took months to get him to the studio to record a track. In the end, he wasn't into it and I had to scrap the track he recorded, and use a synth to lay down the part. My synth part was hands down, so much better. 

When I write a song, I want the parts finished in a timely manner, and to wait on someone else to (begrudgingly) find the time in their schedule is not what I want to do. The same thing applies quite often to internet collaborations. In all fairness to the people here in the Cakewalk forums, I have had some really good experiences with those long distance collaborations. 

I wrote a song back in the spring. It took months to get a female vocalist to actually show up. I have no control over female vocalists so I am stuck having to put those songs on the shelf and wait patiently.  Actually supposed to have a session scheduled tonight to begin the female vox on a new tune. We'll see if this one happens or not. 

Oh and yes..... there are some people here who do consider BB "cheating" or something less than being a real musician for using it. I consider it a tool to accomplish the task at hand. 

And BB is such an amazing program. the programming that went into it is astounding. 

Are you aware that you can import an audio file of a song, and BB will analyze it telling you what key it's in, the tempo and map out the chords with pretty decent accuracy? You can then use that output file to render other tracks. That is just one thing it can do. the way I use it is a very practical way, and I have not even bothered to dig into the deeper areas of what it can do. I dig deep enough to accomplish the task at hand.

Starise


 Wow, a pretty cool result there and a use I had not considered. I noticed the most recent BB has P&W tracks in it as well.I could see using it if I could add my  real instruments into it like that......and I like it when people write me checks too.....

It was really nice because I could insert a IV chord and let her hear it and then change it to a iim7 and ask if that sounded better to her.  I got the basic chords in first then started adding substitutions and passing chords all the while checking to see if this was within the client's vision for the song.
 
Back in that version of BIAB, I had to export the midi to SONAR.   Does BIAB record audio now?

Never used BiaB, but I once toyed with the somewhat similar "assistant" that was included in Guitar Studio 2, back in the days. 

As it turned out, those things never really sit well with my workflow, but I wouldn't discard them altogether. I remember on instance where I came up with an entirely different idea for an arrangement as a result of fooling around with styles, something I would never have thought of otherwise. 

It's almost like when the drummer in your band insists on collaborating in the songwriting process and keeps piling up silly ideas but suddenly comes up with a very good one by accident. ;)

What's cheating in a world where music is put together instead of performed, "singers" are all autotuned, hooks are almost systematically lifted/quoted from hits of the past decades, drums are quantized and "enhanced" with sampled, guitars are comp'ed from 127 takes?

Cheating would be sticking to authentic performances from real musicians. 

I've often asked for something that would amount to EZbass, EZpiano, EZorgan etc. both here in this forum as well as Toontracks.  The concept would play right into the Studio Instruments line for Cakewalk and obviously Toontrack too. 

It would be a sampler to produce the sounds, a librarian to store and organize a groove library and an interface that would allow you to audition, transpose or change the inversion of chords prior to drag and drop into your project.

No one seems interested.

munmun


It seems that some of us are using BIAB to create a template upon which to work.  I want to emphasize that is not the only way to use BIAB.  I have 2 strict rules with this program:

- if I play the instrument then no BIAB allowed
- BIAB drums not allowed.  They lack a certain something.
- no templates (the groove and feel in my head takes priority)

This discussion on BIAB has triggered me to actually start using it since I got it earlier this year. I also agree with your rules munmun (except for the part that says "2 strict rules" but listed 3. lol)