Not sure if this is the correct forum for my problem. Maybe I'm looking for a feature that is not available in Sonar or I cannot find the respective explanation in the documentation, I don't know ...
 
This is what I would like to do:
- think of a song the band has recorded with a click track. The click starts a second or so after the project starts
- the click track counts 4 beats ahead of the song.
- when I drag the click track over the time line to get Sonar to calculate the song speed the result is not related with the click track (means: the bars are not identified where they are AND the begin of the song will also not be identified, even if I use the "whole mix" track without the click track containing the 4 beats before the song starts). Only the average BPMs seem to be right ...
 
Now I'm searching for a way to determine that "bar 1" of the song (on that 5th beat of the click track) with the measure "01:01:00", which obviously is some time after the project start. It would also mean that the measure before the song start would be negative ...
 
Do I ask for something that is simply not possible with Sonar? Or is there a work flow that I maybe haven't discovered yet to get that done somehow? How do you pros handle this topic in your projects?
 
Hints on that are very appreciated!
 

A weakness in SONAR and many of the Top DAW's of today is they do not allow a person to compose music that has the correct math when it comes to music and songs that start before Bar 1 .
Much of the music I play does not start at bar one . There may be a pick up measure where the melody comes in on the "and a" of beat four or beat 3 ...or beat 2  ....this has been a constant source of annoyance for me ...
Even recording a freaking 12 bar blues is hard to keep track of when you expect a new verse or chorus at bar 13 but in reality your time line in the DAW is reading bar 14 or bar 15 if your tune had a pick up measure or two added to the songs timeline to accommodate pick up measures that include a melody that starts before bar one  
It's crazy man ... I only have one DAW that allows me to  set my song start exactly where I want it in the time line regardless of what took place before the song starts ...
 
not sure if this is what you mean in any case I feel better after my rant
 
all the best,
 
Kenny
 
 
 
 
 

Sonar does let you set the number of intro metronome/click beats, so you should be able to start the music in measure 1 no matter what (or shift it all over into measure 1 if you didn't start out that way.
 
In standard music notation pickup bars are always included in the measure numbering and the numbering is always from 1, so what you're asking for there would be totally non-standard in the written music world.
 
OTOH, I can't see why Sonar or any other DAW won't just let you set measure 1 wherever you want for viewing purposes. Actually, there is one big question about that: Do you call the measure before #1 measure 0 or -1?  (but even that could be made an option)

MurkyMark
Sonar does let you set the number of intro metronome/click beats, so you should be able to start the music in measure 1 no matter what (or shift it all over into measure 1 if you didn't start out that way

SO what Every DAW I own and use does that .
 

MurkyMark
 
In standard music notation pickup bars are always included in the measure numbering and the numbering is always from 1, so what you're asking for there would be totally non-standard in the written music world.
 

I know that I had a full scholarship to a Conservatory of Music fresh out of High School
 

MurkyMark
 
OTOH, I can't see why Sonar or any other DAW won't just let you set measure 1 wherever you want for viewing purposes. Actually, there is one big question about that: Do you call the measure before #1 measure 0 or -1?  (but even that could be made an option)

Why don't we just cut the chit chat and get down to the nitty gritty ....
 
Here's a Standard song w a pick up measure to accommodate the melody  ...
The following pics include a BIAB version a SONAR version and a Mixbus version
The tunes name is Blue Bossa .
 

Notice that BIAB has set a pick up measure correctly

 
Once the song file has been imported into SONAR or any other DAW for that matter the timeline gets screwed up ...

 
Bar one of the song now becomes bar 3
 

 

 
Now we can edit the midi , the problem is no matter what you do there is still that one note left in the pick up bar as a melody note ...the time line will always be screwed up ...
 
I don't even bother trying to edit it I just look at it as a 2 measure count in
I hate having to do it this way ...

 
Now on the other hand I have and use a DAW that allows me to set the timeline to my preference ...
 
Same song same everything rendered as audio . Notice the musics timeline
 

 
In this DAW , the timelines bar one can be set first w audio .
Then all my midi tracks will follow and so will the songs correct timeline ...
Not so w SONAR or many other DAW's the math is all screwed up ..
If I said bar 17 on this rendered audio  file of the song in this DAW  you would have the correct chord change just like the sheet music .
 

 
 
I happen to think it is a pretty cool feature ...the thing is for it to work properly the timeline needs to be set to an audio file first for it to stick ...then all midi added will line up ..
This DAW for some reason won't set the timeline to midi w out an audio file first ...the midi just gets moved around .
Audio first to set the timeline and your good to go
 
This setting of the timeline feature is covered in the first two mins of the vid ...

 
all the best,
 
Kenny
 

I've always started my songs at measure 11.
Helps with the math.
Why can't we have measure -1 or -2 or -x; who knows?
Seems it should be a trivial thing to fix, but maybe not...
 
T

DeeringAmps
I've always started my songs at measure 11.
Helps with the math.
Why can't we have measure -1 or -2 or -x; who knows?
Seems it should be a trivial thing to fix, but maybe not...
 
T

That's sounds like a nice Idea . I will have to try that
 
Kenny
 

Thanks all for sharing your experiences. So, I don't need to feel like a completely dump haven't found that bit in the manual ... I just could not believe that people pay 600 bucks or so for a sofisticated piece of a music editing software that is not even able to learn about "measure one" of a recorded session ... I still can't believe it ...
 
I used to use BIAB where it is the most natural thing to click on a position somewhere in the record and it counts from there positive and to there negative. No issues at all ... But I saw BIAB more as a semi-pro tool to enhence the creative process, rather that being a complete DAW. Still jaws dropped down that this real simple feature noone thought about to implement into sonar (and a lot of other DAWs).
 
So, I learned that I cannot use it for this purpose (use the time line appropriately) or as a one stop shop for the majority of the tasks I need to do (as a band member providing recorded rehearsed versions of songs to the others in the band). So, still working with work arounds, temp. help tracks to make Sonar believe of something that is not really relevant, but is necessary for the workflow, tools to accomplish tasks that sonar is not able to do, or is not good for ... shame, shame, shame!
 
Question is, if we will get that at least in the next version??? That would heal a big, big wound ... (sorry to all the guys who don't care about "measure 1" at all ... )