2006/01/17 08:22:48
Mully
Hey J, you are dead right about the inductor being the critical component.. particularly in those early Vox pedals. It makes them the Holy Grail in a sense but thankfully we can still have some great tone from a few of the pedals we have available nowadays. Heck, we still have loads of folk excited about software based amp simulators.... me included.

I'm more than happy with my Dunlop. I had the first one for about 15 years (I've owned close to 20 different wah pedals over the years and only ever played live with the Dunlop) before the pot wore out and even with a replacement never quite sounded the same but I was lucky enuff to have a Hammond player give me his new Dunlop which sounds great (more useless trivia).

I do have an early Vox still in the shed but it doesn't come out to play anymore...

Cheers!
2006/01/17 09:41:17
Joe Bravo
Hey J, you are dead right about the inductor being the critical component.. particularly in those early Vox pedals.

How?
2006/01/17 12:05:55
Boogie
I have the Morley Bad Horsie 2 and it's the best wah I've owned. As far as the Dunlop/Vox varieties being fat and thick and the Morley's being thin sounding, I've found the opposite to be true.

The Morley sounds fatter to my ears. The Bad Horsie 2 also has a Contour adjustment that can be set to replicate the sound of the crybaby types, but without sucking the bottom end out of my tone. I also love the fact that it disengages when you take your foot off. It is true that the Morleys require a little more skill to operate them, but it wasn't hard for me to get used to.

I've owned several Dunlops and a Vox, and the pots get scratchy and wear out way to soon for my liking. The Morleys don't use a potentiometer, so this issue doesn't exist.
2006/01/17 12:53:23
Joe Bravo
I don't want to be a wise guy. But you know, it really ain't a big deal any way you look at it. A wah pedal has gotta be just about the easiest effect there is to make. Heck, Roy Buchanan did just fine manipulating the tone knob on his guitar for a wah effect. All you're doing is sweeping across a limited frequency spectrum. Its brainless. I mean, we all have preferences but it would be a very poor guitarist who couldn't get by just fine with any wah pedal.

Just for comparison sake I'll post a few samples, all 20-30 seconds each. The first is from a recording I made in the early to mid 80's. I don't really know how old the crybaby unit is I'm playing through here. It could be from the 70's or 80's either one. The next two I made a few minutes ago. One is with my current crybaby, probably about 3-years old. The other is the built-in wah effect from my V-Amp2. I'm not using a pedal with it so I have no control as to when it begins to sweep or by how far, but I think you can tell that I've got the frequency spectrum set to something that duplicates the crybaby pretty well. After that comes a morsel of Hendrix playing through God only knows what wah pedal from the Band of Gypsys record. And then the last is a snippet of Roy Buchanan just manipulating the tone control on his Tele for a wah sound. Really, it just ain't a big deal. I'd be perfectly happy with any of these wah sounds.

Crybaby - 1985

Crybaby - 2003

V-Amp2

Hendrix

Buchanan

PS, I've never used a Morley but I've heard some other people get good sounds with them.
2006/01/17 13:08:27
j boy
Joe, I know what you are saying about it not mattering so much and I can agree *for myself*, but believe me there are folks out there for whom it matters a great deal, and they aren't just blowing smoke up each other's arses. In particular, if you ever get into vintage fuzz pedals you'll discover that the type of transistor makes a big difference, germanium versus silicon. Germaniums are notoriously variable in quality, such that some were golden while others sounded like arse. Even the ambient temperature affected the tone of these suckers! Is it a big deal? Not any more so than 44.1 kHz versus 192 kHz. Can you hear the difference? Maybe or maybe not, but folks pay out big bucks for the difference nonetheless.

Bear in mind, I am not a gear fetishist myself, so I'm just passing along information...

And after all, the thread is titled "Best Wah Pedal", not "any old wah pedal", so I assume the author wanted to know which is best (subjectively of course) and not just "this pedal works for me". Obviously it's subjective so I won't diss your pedal or anybody else's... there is no right or wrong answer. Just get a discussion started among microphone gear hounds about which ones are best (then stand back!).

BTW - I'll take those old PAF humbuckers off your hands... you know, the ones you replaced because the magnets are old.
2006/01/17 13:15:36
Boogie
ORIGINAL: Joe Bravo

I don't want to be a wise guy. But you know, it really ain't a big deal any way you look at it.


Not a big deal to you, maybe. But to the original poster maybe it is. Apparently, you thought it's big enough of a deal to dedicate several long posts to the subject. Are we not allowed to disagree? I like my wah a lot and I don't mind recommending it to anyone who may be shopping. Besides, don't we music geeks get in here to talk about these sorts of things because we enjoy it? I do.



2006/01/17 17:55:36
Joe Bravo
Not any more so than 44.1 kHz versus 192 kHz. Can you hear the difference?

Goodness no. There's no difference to hear except for better stereo separation which you lose as soon as you dither back to 44.1. Yeah, its just amazing to me how people can delude themselves into thinking all kinds of irrational stuff. Video nuts are the worst at this. Hi-def shot at 24p with the right cine-gamma curves and a little added grain can look so much like film now that I'm convinced nobody could possibly tell the difference. But there are tinker bells-o-plenty in La-La Land who will swear they can. Its no wonder to me why there are about a million web pages on space aliens, the mystical cabala, Elvis sightings, magic, and worse. The world's gone mad. At least we get a good show.

Hey, in some defense of the inductor theory though, I'll gladly admit that coffee tastes a little different depending on whether you drink it from styrofoam, ceramic, or glass cups even though those things in themselves have no taste. Everything seems to taste better when sipped from a glass container. I have no idea why. There must be some science behind it. Its hard to believe that different materials would contribute to a difference in sound though, but stranger things have happened.
2006/01/17 18:21:21
Joe Bravo
Not a big deal to you, maybe. But to the original poster maybe it is.

I just want people to keep their perspectives proper. Its just a wah pedal. I can make a great recording with any of them. I can also make a poor recording with any of them. And nobody would blame the pedal for my success or failure in either case. I mean, really you have a few notable exceptions but the differences between most wah pedals are fairly slight.
2006/01/17 21:01:23
yep
There certainly CAN be a difference in quality between different inductors and different circuit paths. Poorly-designed or cheaply manufactured components can create unneccessary resistance, which can lead to signal attenuation, esp. at high freqs, or can become capacitive in ways that exceed the intent, which will cause frequency anamolies and phase-distortion. So people who say that the components can make a difference in the sound are technically correct. End of factual analysis.

BUT, as a matter of personal opinion, I am inclined to side with Joe on this one-- this is an electric guitar pedal. This is super-primitive, soviet-era technology that was for the most part invented in garages by potheads with parts from radio shack.

"Vintage" electric guitar, and the whole signal path through the amp including the speakers, was designed for volume, not for fidelity. The signal path and audio integrity of electric guitar is terrible. Noisy, severly bandwidth-limited, crude, you name it. From the speakers to the cables to the amplification cicuitry, it is DIY-style improvisational technology, and not the audiophile-kind, either.

I'll bet that the original designers of these pedals never conducted any kind of significant testing on the components they used, beyond experimenting with different nominal inductor values (not different chemical formulations). I bet at most they went to radio shack or You-Do-It electronics and bought a few different sizes of parts and when they found one they liked, they wrote down the specs and ordered them in bulk. If the manufacturer and composition of the first factory run happened to be the same as the first prototype, that was probably only because the wah-pedal company, like Radio Shack, was buying from the cheapest supplier.

I doubt very seriously whether many of the guitar gods of myth and legend were sitting conducting double-blind listening tests of different years, makes and models of wah pedals, like a wine connesuier, or a modern-day gear nerd lovingly caressing some "authentic" crappy old leaky, dime-store capacitor from a vintage Fender Bassman.

The placebo effect is real, and there is real "magic" in certain types of gear for certain types of players. I will give away one of my most jealously-guarded studio secrets by way of illustration:

I have a bunch of old guitars. Some of them are valuable "vintage" instruments, some of them are simply old. New clients almost invariably go for the flashier "vintage" ones-- the mid-60s SG, or the burnished old strat, or whatever.

Now, we all know that guitar players get bored. they get tempermental and irritable, and ideas that seemed to them two hours ago like the apex of western art seem like tired old casio keyboard riffs after tuning up and setting up and making the same mistake 12 times in a row. They complain about the sound, they say they're not getting the tone they're after, they want to change brands of string, they think the problem is the wrong brand of tuning gears, they want to switch to doing rap metal or free-form jazz, whatever.

Here's what I do: "You know," I say, "The Les Paul (or whatever they're playing) certainly seems like the obvious choice for this kind of music, but I almost wonder if... nah. You're probably not ready for 'El Diablo'. You wouldn't be into it."

"What? What do you mean I wouldn't be into it? What's El Diablo? I'm ready, BELIEVE ME, I am READY for El Diablo."

"You think so?"

"Are you kidding? I know so! Just lemme try it, El Diablo is exactly what I'm missing! What is it?"

"Wait here. Let me go into the BACK ROOM. That's where we keep... El Diablo."

I make a dramatic show of getting up on a chair to remove a hidden key from above the door and suspiciously, furtively, unlock a supply closet, and jump in, pulling the door shut behind me so no one can see what secrets lie within. A few tense moments later, I emerge with... El Diablo.

El Diablo gleams sensuously in the dim light of the tracking room. The deep, bloody patina glow of her red-and-black sunburst finish is offset by the crackled, textured, but still-brilliant old chrome of her hardware. The age-mellowed, bone-colored bindings speak of dignity and consequence. The strings resonate with a subtle, ominous, flamenco twang as my fingers shift across them to present the voluptuous curves of her naked painted body to the budding talent before me.

"THIS," I say, "is El Diablo." (sharp intake of breath from the awed recipient). I continue:

"I couldn't even begin to guess how much this would be worth today (true). I doubt you could even find one for sale anywhere-- maybe once a year or so one comes up on eBay or someplace, I wouldn't know (true). Very, VERY few people alive right now have ever played a guitar like this (still true). It took a LOT of legwork, time and effort to get this, and I expect you to be very careful with it (sort of true). I don't usually bring it out for clients (true). Now give it a shot and see how you like her."

Usually, but not always, he LOVES her. He wants to marry her. He makes love to her with his fingers. He swears that it is exactly what was missing, that the sound is so much fuller, richer, sweeter. Better. And you know what, it IS better. The MAGIC is there, that wasn't there before. It is the magic of a creative spirit in the presence of something special, something magic, creating something magic. It was the magic that was in his very first guitar until he learned enough to be embarrassed by it and think it inadequate.

Of course, as you've probably guessed, El Diablo is nothing more than some obscure old yard-sale rehab or flea-market bargain or whatever. Two of my "El Diablos" are funny-shaped old Fenders (bought pre-Nirvana, who drove up the prices for those), Two are ancient archtops of unknown manufacture, one is a weird old single-coil, single-pickup Les Paul of some sort, one is a very antique-looking old yamaha with the name painted over and some modifications done by yours truly that I have been known to exaggerate and say is "custom."

Of course, I don't actually use the term "El Diablo" (not usually anyway, maybe if the guy is high). And I wouldn't try to pull something like that on somebody who was obviously very knowledgeable about old guitars (those people almost always bring their own, anyway, though). And I almost always reveal the man behind the curtain after the perfrormance is done.

In fairness, every guitar I own is one of the best I have ever played-- that's why I own them. From the vintage firebird to the $120 Ibanez knockoff, every one of these guitars is there for a reason, and does something that none of the other do as well. Every one is immaculately set up, plays like a dream, has no or very little hum and no buzzy frets or off-intonation. Every one stays in tune, even with vigourous playing and tremelo bar work, if there is a tremelo bar. i put a lot of work into shielding the body cavities, filing the nuts and saddles to exactly the right height, re-habbing sketchy solder joints, replacing hardware that causes breakage or tuning problems, replacng bad frets, adjusting pickup height and pitch, etc and so on.

I have replaced a lot of elctronics and a lot of hardware and spent a lot of late nights with calipers and sandpapre and files and a soldering iron. I've spent a lot of time shopping for these guitars.

Many (rather most, or almost all) off-the shelf guitars come poorly set-up, with bad fret jobs and variable wood quality and poor sheilding of the electrical components and action that is improperly matched to string gague and pickup height (even expensive ones from big brand names).

Given all this, it is almost safe to say that for many guitar players, I could pull up any of my guitars at random and say, "I bet this is the best guitar you've ever played" and be right (and I'm not really even a guitar player--just a guy who loves good sounds and good instruments).

But the point is, what made "El Diablo" work for Guitar Johnny was NOT the guitar itself, but the magic of a special instrument.

Some really outstanding players can pick up some crappy old POS guitar, badly set up with rusted old strings and plug into a cheap solid-state amp without even looking at the knob settings and create the voice of God. Others can be given a glorious instrument and a magnificent amplifier and a full rack of expensive effects and hours to tune up and dial up their sound and produce something that sounds like soggy limp ass hairs.

The magic is in the fingers, the technique, and the spirit of the player, not in the circuits or the type of glue or composition of the tone capacitor. This is true for all instruments, but it is especially true of electric guitar, which is, let's face it, about the crappiest, most obnoxious, offensive, and annoying instrument on God's green earth. And those are exactly the qualities that make it so compelling when it's done right-- like the wracked-out old voice of damaged bluesman, the crackly, hummy, fizzy, lo-fi noise of an electric guitar is what makes it so real and so compelling.

That's my feelings anyway, not fact.

Cheers.





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