• Hardware
  • Rickenbacker + POD + SONAR = ??
2014/03/04 06:03:28
Frink
Hi All,
 
I've been trying for some time to get my gear working exactly how I want it. In most areas I'm pretty happy with the results but there's one that I'm not quite hitting yet...
 
On stage, my beloved combination of Rickenbacker 330 through a Fender Twin Reverb is enough to peel even the most stubborn tiles off the toilet walls - I love a crisp sound with a menacing bottom-end, topped with a shiny clean chime (I'm trying desperately to avoid using the term 'jangly' as it's a bit too clichéd with a Ricky, but hey-ho).
 
My playing style is somewhat reminiscent to Peter Buck's figures and deep note riffs (Driver 8/The One I Love/So. Central Rain) but there's also a fair bit of busy Marr arpeggios going on in there too (Girl Afraid/Still Ill/Barbarism). Without wanting to sound too derivative, you might get the idea of where I'm coming from.
 
The problem I have is trying to nail this sound with the equipment I have: I'm basically using a POD 2.0 between the guitar and the DAW. I always record dry without FX but even after adding them in SONAR I'm not getting anything that stands out too well - I think the problem I have is that 'stand-alone', the guitar sounds lovely when I'm setting it up to record but, within a bigger SONAR mix, it's getting buried and blurred and just not cutting through. Of course, all this points to my abilities at mixing, EQing, reverb/delay/comp, levels and pan separation etc. but even after numerous multiple tweaks and start-again reboots, I'm never fully satisfied with where it ends up.
 
Does anyone have any suggestions or advice for setting up (pre or post)?
 
I fear the answer is to keep trying and trying (and I know I'm not going to get a reply that says "Turn your 5 Ricky dials and your 10 POD dials to these positions and everything will be perfect forever and ever amen") but some good tips might be just the thing to get me out of my rut.
 
Thankee sai,
 
Frink.
2014/03/04 08:55:30
Jim Roseberry
Hi Frink,
 
If you achieve a sound you love "on stage" (the combination of the 330 and Twin), why not just mic the Twin and be done with it?  Sometimes it's quicker/easier to just record the real thing.
2014/03/04 11:06:22
Frink
Dammit! I knew someone would say that. 
 
The Twin's a fine beast but it does rather hoot like a banshee. My 'studio' is a room in my house so I have to keep the noise down, meaning that my allowable recording time is down to a few hours every weekend. When using the POD, however, I can twang along nicely without the cat even noticing.
 
I have experimented with putting a mic (a Rode NT3 or a Shure SM58) on the Twin but there's a fair bit of valve hum coming off it and my studio is not so big that it's tricky to get a good mic position without breaking a window or two.
 
I've certainly put more thought into this method lately but I'm still secretly hoping that someone somewhere is going to switch on a big bulb over my head...
2014/03/05 07:19:36
The Maillard Reaction
Peter's sound was formed with a AC30. You're in London. Do the math. ;-)
 
If you love the Twin, a Deluxe Reverb will get you that tone and be a lot easier to record and mix.
 
Getting a real life guitar sound from a Pod6? Oh behave. ;-)
 
 
In any event, don't be shy about using the lo-cut filter on your recorded tracks to keep the mix from getting to muddy.
 
 
best regards,
mike
2014/03/05 17:37:32
Jay Tee 4303
"Standalone...guitar lovely, but in a mix..."
 
Try playing the mix with all muted cept guitar.  This may go quicker w 4-6 busses steada individual trax. Guitar lovely, yes or no? If yes, you captured the lovely you heard on capture/setup, if no...something's been lost and you have to figure out what.
 
Unmute vox. Guitar still lovely, yes or no? If yes...unmute the next most likely competitor...keys if present, bass if not. You know where the general freq overlaps occur. When you find the intruder, start w its fader. Bring it in looking for two things, where the masking begins, and, if possible why. Whats going away in guitar, or stepping on it from another source?
 
Some usual key elements to a lovely guitar are:
1. Low end, the chunk from making a big cone move big air.
2. Phat mids.
3. Upper mid ring.
4. Attack, pick noise, chicka chicka (on rhythm)
5. Sparkle.
 
7.Nature of the fuzz if overdriven. Only you can define the proper mix of crunch and fizz.
8.Post...verb, delay, mod. I've had guitars that worked a ton of different ways till I lost the verb tails in a mix, which killed it.
 
Once you know whats going away, and who is causing it, you're on the road to a pair of objectives. First, priorities... maybe the offender is more important to the message than the guitar is. Second, hazy outlines what to do about the conflict. Placement in stereo spread, dynamics on one or both, eq, timing, what takes priority when, how many element's is the listener being asked to focus on at a time? Who is the boss, measure by measure, who can carry the piece alone at that point, indispensible, and is that part virtuoso enough to carry the whole tune or is evolution required? Is this measure a solo, solo w backing, a duet, (back and forth, or blended) a gang fight, team on team, (blended or back and forth), or a climax, all in, all they got?
 
If your in the bridge headed for climax, say, guitar bass and drums back n forth w vox, and the vox are too strong, all it might need is the tiniest bit of click/chicka from guitar to get back the balanced tension, and you might just get that carving a few db outta the 5k range on vox for more pick noise on guitar, and lose some nasty vox artifacts in the process, and at the same time, that might kill the mood too.
 
With guitar and vox both popular cuz they tag peak human frequency sensitivity, something that's worked for me is to pull unpleasant vox honk 700-900, and see what guitar I can narrowly slot in the gap...how can I tailor distortion and/or verb tails plus dry guitar in a niche where vox isn't working? How can I max that edge with additional small increments of pan or verb differential? Real important for me to keep a close eye on how I did this, cuz I might just want to swing focus back and forth as the message develops.
 
One more common one to look at, guitar verb.They often set their own, and it can fight w the common room you set the rest of the piece in very easily, especially if you are adding room to an amp's spring or plate. Recipe for mud there.
 
How do you know? Two verbs mushing out, or guitar crunch negatively interacting w vox? Two options...get lucky, or isolate these individual components by seperating them and A/Bing. You effectively have unlimited trax, clone buttons, eq, and mutes, once you find the broader areas of contention w busses. Then you have unlimited tools to address the conflicts.
 
In fact, the infinite is the enemy, too many options, unless you harness and group them with a systematic approach, planned in advance, and executed without getting lost in deep space. A hardcopy checklist is my goto, the first time I end a resolution session without finishing the original plan or solving the problem.
 
Good luck!
2014/03/05 19:19:43
Ruben
I'm not sure how much this plays into Buck's guitar sound, but many Ric players put their Ric's through a compressor first thing. That is in fact the "sound" of Roger McGuinn's 12-string on the Byrds' recordings and there is even a Ric/McGuinn model that includes a compressor in it's electronics. Anyway, you could try adding a good deal of compression to the guitar track, or even recording with compression and see if that helps preserve your sound.
 
And of course another option is to get a smaller tube amp, like an 8 watt amp or anything low-watt that will still get a nice tube sound but won't shake the tile off your neighbor's loo.  
2014/03/05 21:00:29
Cactus Music
The minute you mentioned the "pod" I need not read further. They just don't come close to sounding like what anybody who has experienced the interaction between a good guitar and a good amp gets. It's a pod, Its for bedroom podding by podders. 
 
So here's a solution I use that might work for you too. 
Isolate the amp in something. 
A closet, a packing crate, your mini van in the carport. 
I use a Princeton which is smaller so easier to build a box for, but you get the idea. 
I use the same setting on my amp I use live in the studio, I have to. Nothing else will work. 
My amp is in a closet just outside my studio space with a bunch of couch cushions buffering the household from the racket. There is enough air movement to keep it from overheating. It also allows me to record with the mike and work without headphones. 
 
An even better idea I'm planning on re doing, is to use an extension cabinet. That way the amp stays in the room with you, but the speaker is isolated. This solves the heat issue as well. I used to do this but sold the little cabinet to a friend, now I miss it so I'm looking at 10" Celestion and build an open back box. 
 
Yet a 3rd solution is Radial makes a speaker line level DI box and then a power soak to work the amp. 
2014/03/06 08:56:02
Frink
Thanks for the replies, gang - 'specially Jay Tee (I like your prose - I'll bet you write a nice lyric too).
 
I experimented for a couple of hours last night before the family got back home and the sun went down.
I recorded a few different takes of set-ups with different mic proximity, amp/gtr settings and compressor levels. Was planning to audition them tonight but I'll probably wait until the weekend when I can crank the volume up a bit and listen back at a volume similar to the original playing.
 
One step at a time as Jay Tee suggested is probably the first thing to nail: I'll see if I can get SONAR to play back the guitar and make it sound like it did when I played it 'live'.
 
Thanks again,
 
Oh: and I like this line -
 
Cactus Music
 It's a pod, Its for bedroom podding by podders. 
 



Will also experiment with Cactus' soundproofing techniques...
 
Will aim to share some results with you if and when I get it right.
 
F.
2014/03/06 15:11:54
kristoffer
Do you own any software guitar amps? 
 
I've actually gotten a few great guitar tones out of Pod Farm 2.5 - not the real deal when comparing to a Twin Reverb on '11 but I think the difference is less when you put the guitar in the mix with the other instruments. 
 
 
2014/03/13 12:45:55
Jay Tee 4303
On pods, ampsims, stax, outboard, etc...
 
I just finished a practice session at the end of which I laid down perc and guitar for a nice little riff that just popped into my head...on my Android phone, in Voice Recorder. Drums were Electrum on an Android tablet, thru a Soundfreaq bluetooth speaker.
 
Guitar was a one pickup Traveler, thru a 50 dollar Marshall, with a 1x4 inch cabinet, running on a nine volt battery, then thru a decades old Microverb 4, then a 50 dollar LTO ZMX  "mixer", and out a pair of  Logitech monitors w 2 inch drivers.
 
The groove was good throughout, sound problems gone in the first 60 seconds via selective perception, and I have a good song idea for future development. Gear did exactly what I want of it, function without hassle.
 
I won't compare the sound to a wall of Marshalls, but I'm not driving an arena today either. In the studio, I prefer flexibility, and at the outset, full tonal range, but by the time I'm done chopping guitar to make room for the rest of the arrangement, I might very well have less of the spectrum and tonality remaining, than if I used the rig described above.
 
In my opinion, if a pod or any other gear drives the groove and I end up with what I need at Mastering, I'm good. In fact I own a Pod Pro that I've never heard, just haven't gotten to the instruction book yet. I normally record thru a Marshall head, w a clean split, both DIed. The Marshall makes it to tape as well as clean signal too, very often rough mixes begin w Amplitube 3, not the Marshall signal.
 
If the Pod drives the groove, it will get used. If not...it may end up like a Roland VGA 3 I use as a pre for te clean guitar DI. I have yet to get a tone from it that doesn't make me grit my teeth and lose focus, but I bet I will eventually. I have a Squier thru a BossME-70. Guitar...well no, not yet, but with an EBS Octabass stomp, it makes a great bass signal for either rapid writing coordination tween guitar and bass, and quite possibly a tone I will use for real.
 
I dismiss no equipment unless it fails intermittantly, totally, or I decree there's no usable sounds in it, and that's never happened yet. 
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