• Hardware
  • Want to buy studio-quality monitors. Any recommandations? (p.4)
2013/07/30 17:57:20
Jeff Evans
The most important thing you can do is to take in a known CD of your own choosing and listen to various sets of speakers in a store etc.. Try and hear the CD on some more expensive speakers if you can first. If you cannot do that listen to your CD on an expensive set of monitors in the store first and gain some insight as to how the CD sounds on them then you will have some frame of reference which will help you choose a cheaper set.
 
Beware of the music they are playing in a store as well. They will use material which will make even cheaper speakers sound good. You might want to start with the genre that you are most interested in first.  A late Steely Dan CD will also sort out the better speakers too. Just make sure the CD is beautifully mixed and not over mastered.
 
You are going to be sitting in front of them for a long time so it essential you do like your monitors.
 
Check these out:
 
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ErisE8
 
They are right in your ball park and they are new and feature an 8" woofer too. Presonus are new to making speakers but they could be OK you never know.
2013/07/31 09:51:52
alpha8768
Hey what's up everyone!
 
Yesterday I went to almost all music/audio stores in Quebec City and I finally found my pair of monitors! I've been listening at some Yamaha 8", Tannoy 5", JBL 5", KRK 6", RCF 8", M-Audio 8" and "Bowers & Wilkins 5". When making the tests I brought my own orchestral CD and I assure that all frequencies were "flat" when testing. Here I can put you guys the speakers in order of appreciation (from lowest appreciation to highest appreciation).
 
-M Audio 8" (Not good)/
-JBL 5" (I was sort of surprised)/
-KRK 6" (Every seller discommended these to me by the way)/
-RCF 8" (They were O.K but still a little color I don't liked)/
-Tannoy 5" (Never heard of Tannoy monitors but they were definitely good)/
-Yamaha 8" (No color, very accurate and sharp speakers)/
-Bowers & Wilkins 5" (The great winners!)
 
So I bought the Bowers & Wilkins 686 speakers from the last shop I visited. When I entered the room and played my CD, it took me about 1 minute to find out where that sound was coming from (there were about 17 sets of speakers in the room) and, to my big surprise, it was not coming from 1600$ 8" badass monitors, it was coming from that little pair of bad boys sitting in the middle of the room, right in front of me.
 
There is a VERY SUBTLE coloration in their sound but it is so soft that it makes the orchestral scores even better (not too much better) while giving the second most accurate sound (after the Yamaha 8"). 600$ taxes incl. later (the original price was 700$ taxes incl. but there was a discount for B&W monitors) , I got out of the audio shop with them in my arms, satisfied of my finding.
 
I would like to thank everyone who took time to write in this thread. I finally found my pair of studio monitors and now it's time to go back to writing :) !
 
Cheers
2013/07/31 10:24:14
Jeff Evans
Sounds to me like you have bought a pair of Hi Fi speakers. Although they may sound great, Hi Fi speakers do not necessarily make great studio monitors that are monitoring the direct output from your DAW.
 
Hi Fi speakers are actually designed to handle a lower dynamic range that is coming from the final playback medium such as vinyl or most modern (mastered) CD's. Active studio monitors on the other hand can handle the sometimes huge dynamic range that may come out of your DAW. (built in amps and protection systems)
 
You are going to have to be careful and keep the volume well down and make sure you don't accidently hit them with something they might have trouble handling such as raw uncompressed sound that can often leave your DAW. They may not last as long as an active studio monitor.
 
The KRK's for example are better suited for DAW monitoring as the Presonus speakers are too. Most salesman know squat, sorry.
 
Did you tell them you wanted to do DAW type work and that is what you wanted the speakers for. But hey I am sure they are great, you will have to treat them with care. It won't take much to blow them across the room though. An underpowered amp is not good for them, but a powerful amp wont have any problems destroying them either. (if you are careless that is)
2013/07/31 10:24:26
batsbrew
the Bowers & Wilkins 686 are bookshelf speakers, no?
2013/07/31 12:25:26
alpha8768
Jeff Evans
Sounds to me like you have bought a pair of Hi Fi speakers. Although they may sound great, Hi Fi speakers do not necessarily make great studio monitors that are monitoring the direct output from your DAW.
 
Hi Fi speakers are actually designed to handle a lower dynamic range that is coming from the final playback medium such as vinyl or most modern (mastered) CD's. Active studio monitors on the other hand can handle the sometimes huge dynamic range that may come out of your DAW. (built in amps and protection systems)
 
You are going to have to be careful and keep the volume well down and make sure you don't accidently hit them with something they might have trouble handling such as raw uncompressed sound that can often leave your DAW. They may not last as long as an active studio monitor.
 
The KRK's for example are better suited for DAW monitoring as the Presonus speakers are too. Most salesman know squat, sorry.
 
Did you tell them you wanted to do DAW type work and that is what you wanted the speakers for. But hey I am sure they are great, you will have to treat them with care. It won't take much to blow them across the room though. An underpowered amp is not good for them, but a powerful amp wont have any problems destroying them either. (if you are careless that is)



"Hi-Fi" stands for "High-Fidelity", right? Sounds great to me xD. These B&W are passive speakers built for versatile work. Since they are going to be my main speakers for both gaming and multimedia, I thought it would not be a bad idea to choose them since they sound VERY GOOD even for my own amateur mixes.
 
I told the guy I was composing orchestral music with a computer and a FocusRite audio interface/amp. Although the store was specialized in home theatre speakers, he decided to show me the B&W 600 series since they were made for all sorts of work. He wouldn't have recommended these to me if I was making pop music or heavy metal, but neo-classical is very different and way more "easy" on monitors, if you know what I mean.
 
For more information about my purchase, you can refer to this page: bowers-wilkins.com/Speakers/Home_Audio/600_Series/686 [dot] html .
 
Their specs are very similar to studio monitors and I am using a FocusRite amp to drive them, which I think is not an overpowered or underpowered amp for my new bad boys. However, thanks for the information, your warnings will be greatly acknowledged. I'll be carfeul I promess.
 
P.S: The guy from the second shop I've been talked about Presonus speakers, but since there were none of them in-store, I prefered to stick with what I could hear first :| He told be lots of goods about them though.
 
EDIT: I just browsed the internet and I found out that many people out there are using the B&W 686 as their main studio monitors! I can tell you I saw several threads on many websites (gearslutz, avsforums, son-vidéo [dot] com, youtube) and those people weren't deceived. However this is what Vitalis from Gearslutz wrote: "I am extremely careful about how much level I put into them though." He is definitely right.
 
batsbrew
the Bowers & Wilkins 686 are bookshelf speakers, no?



They are commercialized as bookshelf speakers, you are right. Their versatile capabilities make them good for all kind of work, making them refined monitors. Since they're used a lot in home theatres, I think they are well suited for classical music and trust me my ears can't lie: they definitely sounded the best and the most accurate out of all the monitors I heard playing my mixes. They maybe not have as much "brute force", but once again it's safe to say they are well suited for my usage.
 
EDIT: I just browsed the internet and I found out that many people out there are using the B&W 686 as their main studio monitors! I can tell you I saw several threads on many websites (gearslutz, avsforums, son-vidéo [dot] com, youtube) and those people weren't deceived.
2013/07/31 15:48:21
batsbrew
just as long as you understand the concept, of bookshelves versus true monitors.
they are not the same animal, and a LOT of people miss this.
they end up with hyped mixes, and do not understand why.
 
2013/07/31 17:19:27
Jeff Evans
I don't agree that producing classical music is any easier on monitors than anything else. I have produced many orchestral simulations so I know what it is like dealing with the raw materials that lead up to a final orchestral mix. The orchestral bass drum for example or the low arco double basses have the potential to make a hi fi speaker woofer move about three inches!  Sure when the whole things is mixed, mastered and the compression processes come into play and the bottom end is under control yes it might be a good time to check a mix on them for sure but not much before.
 
I really doubt that many studios are using them as their starting point or their main speakers. They may have them in there for checking reference and mixes on them. I use small hi fi speakers myself to check mixes on but not until everything is very well mixed and mastered eg as if you were playing a standard CD on them.
 
Starting with a home theatre store in my opinion was not the thing to do. You should have started by going into a store that featured active studio monitors that are generally used for DAW work first. I have heard very very good things about the Presonus speakers too and it would have been smart to seek them out and give them a decent testing before doing anything else.
 
When I started producing electronic music many years ago I used my Hi Fi speakers as the main monitors. I had a pair of British Leak speakers that even featured a 12" woofer and a decent mid range and tweeter as well. (they handled tons of power too and I had a decent amp driving them) They did not last long though only about a year or so, I basically destroyed them over a period of time. And I was not pushing them that hard either. It was not until I got a proper pair of active monitors that my mixes started sounding much better and they lasted a much longer time. They are virtually indestructible. Especially now they are even better.
2013/07/31 17:42:42
alpha8768
Jeff Evans
I don't agree that producing classical music is any easier on monitors than anything else. I have produced many orchestral simulations so I know what it is like dealing with the raw materials that lead up to a final orchestral mix. The orchestral bass drum for example or the low arco double basses have the potential to make a hi fi speaker woofer move about three inches!  Sure when the whole things is mixed, mastered and the compression processes come into play and the bottom end is under control yes it might be a good time to check a mix on them for sure but not much before.
 
I really doubt that many studios are using them as their starting point or their main speakers. They may have them in there for checking reference and mixes on them. I use small hi fi speakers myself to check mixes on but not until everything is very well mixed and mastered eg as if you were playing a standard CD on them.
 
Starting with a home theatre store in my opinion was not the thing to do. You should have started by going into a store that featured active studio monitors that are generally used for DAW work first. I have heard very very good things about the Presonus speakers too and it would have been smart to seek them out and give them a decent testing before doing anything else.
 
When I started producing electronic music many years ago I used my Hi Fi speakers as the main monitors. I had a pair of British Leak speakers that even featured a 12" woofer and a decent mid range and tweeter as well. (they handled tons of power too and I had a decent amp driving them) They did not last long though only about a year or so, I basically destroyed them over a period of time. And I was not pushing them that hard either. It was not until I got a proper pair of active monitors that my mixes started sounding much better and they lasted a much longer time. They are virtually indestructible. Especially now they are even better.


Well there was a little misunderstanding here. The home theatre shop was the last one I visited. If you read my posts in the second page of this thread, you can see I heard many other active studio monitors. However, their sounds were all differently colored (except the Yamaha ones, they were very accurate but too expensive) and I still think the B&W sounded the best and very accurate.
 
I agree they will not last 10 years like would some other active monitors, but they will be used carefully. Arguably the most famous monitor used around the world (Yammy NS10) were designed to be Hi-Fi loudspeakers. Therefore, I think our answer is not only black or white. It can be grey. Since I'm not the only one using the B&W 686 in my studio, I'll try to gather some information about how they behave and I'll make a few test to determine the optimal volume I can allow them.
 
For now, would you have any advices concerning what I should do to be more "easy" on my 686s? Your input is greatly appreciated.
 
EDIT: Steve Albini uses a set of B&W bookshelves for monitors if I'm not mistaking. Also, folks at the Boston's M.I.T research studio are using more than 30 B&W Hi-Fi monitors spread all over their room. By the same token, I know that Robert Henke (Monolake) recently purchased some, admittedly very expensive, Hi-Fi speakers to replace his Genelec studio monitors. The album he just did on them sounds fantastic.
2013/07/31 18:08:56
Jeff Evans
I am not trying to make you feel bad that is for sure. I hope they work very well for you. Well I think there are few things you can do:
 
1  Keep an eye on your overall listening level. I use a SPL meter in my studio and keeping things at 85 dB SPL is a very smart thing to do. It is a gorgeous volume and not very loud at all but still nice and loud enough to hear things very well. I can crank my speakers up to past 105 dB or even 110 dB SPL. You basically will never be able to do that though.
 
Keep an eye on your woofer and see how far it is moving. It is direct feedback as to how hard it is working!
 
3  Not sure you can do this but if you had a spare stereo compressor you could press into service it might be an idea to have in the signal chain just before the power amp and set for limiting. Fastest attack and threshold high so under most conditions it is doing nothing and will not influence your sound (other than the sound of it though) If you do accidently produce a very loud sound (Every one here has done it and I have done it many times!) it will catch it and reign it in.
 
4  Be vigilant about your switch on procedure and make sure your power amp goes on last and off first. This can be a problem. Like my digital mixer sometimes produces the most horrendous noise if I accidently have my main active speakers on for any reason.
2013/07/31 23:41:19
alpha8768
Jeff Evans
I am not trying to make you feel bad that is for sure. I hope they work very well for you. Well I think there are few things you can do:
 
1  Keep an eye on your overall listening level. I use a SPL meter in my studio and keeping things at 85 dB SPL is a very smart thing to do. It is a gorgeous volume and not very loud at all but still nice and loud enough to hear things very well. I can crank my speakers up to past 105 dB or even 110 dB SPL. You basically will never be able to do that though.
 
Keep an eye on your woofer and see how far it is moving. It is direct feedback as to how hard it is working!
 
3  Not sure you can do this but if you had a spare stereo compressor you could press into service it might be an idea to have in the signal chain just before the power amp and set for limiting. Fastest attack and threshold high so under most conditions it is doing nothing and will not influence your sound (other than the sound of it though) If you do accidently produce a very loud sound (Every one here has done it and I have done it many times!) it will catch it and reign it in.
 
4  Be vigilant about your switch on procedure and make sure your power amp goes on last and off first. This can be a problem. Like my digital mixer sometimes produces the most horrendous noise if I accidently have my main active speakers on for any reason.



1. Check. This is a must-have in my opinion and a very good idea. I may even get lower than 85dB because I usually don't crank them up higher than 80dB, even for gaming because I don't need that much noise in my room (and I got young and fresh ears to take care of xP). By the way, would a SPL Meter app for my medium-end android smartphone do the job? I'll try it.
 
2. Check. Naturally!
 
3. As you probably guessed I don't own a spare stereo compressor at the moment but this would be a great idea. I'll try to see if my friends got any of these but for now I'll try to be careful!
 
4. Check. However, I saw something in the FocusRite user manual about powering on the monitors after the USB interface/amp is connected and the green light is lit. I'll just have to make sure the volume is set down when powering them on and off. I'll have to verify this though.
 
Don't worry friend, I'm here to learn new stuff and you did nothing but your job: to inform newbies like me on what they actually bought. You warned me about how to use Hi-Fi speakers in a home studio and I am very grateful, without your tips and tricks my B&W monitors would probably be hurt by the time I'm typing this.
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