• SONAR
  • Gain Issues - I don't get it? (p.2)
2014/08/28 16:07:23
Keni
sharke
Are you sure the signal's too hot coming in and not too hot coming out? What happens when you turn down the output on the compressor? Is the light still lit red? If it has a fixed threshold then obviously that threshold should not "overload" the ProChannel.



Thanks Sharke...
 
Exactly my point. The PC76 is first in the chain, it's LED is the only one showing any overs... Lowering the output gain of it doesn't change the LED reading...
 
Keni
 
2014/08/28 16:42:29
Keni
As a further note...
 
I've just experimented with replacing the PC76 with my other compressors and I do not run into this problem. When I used the CA2a, I had a tiny over which I corrected by reducing the track's trim 1db... then adjusted the gain reduction for any desired amount... I tried the S-type channel compressor and it too gave the same results.... I could easily use them to compress the signal as much as I want... But both of these have threshold control...
 
So what;s the problem with the PC76? If I lower the trim (it needs to be reduced near 4db before the over stop with the input set at it's default), there's not enough signal to do any compression, raising the PC76's input enough to achieve such brings back the overs... Something's not right here...
 
Keni
 
 
Keni
 
2014/08/28 17:00:22
Anderton
Maybe the original hardware had a lower threshold for the clip indicator, and the virtual version models that. Or maybe someone entered the wrong number in the code.
 
If the waveform doesn't look clipped, don't worry about it 
2014/08/28 17:07:01
sharke
For what it's worth, I think there are some issues with the PC clip indicators. I've experienced cases where the strip indicator shows red even though all of the PC modules are showing green/orange and the gain is very moderate throughout. Yesterday I discovered that the strip indicator of one of my tracks is stuck on red, even when playback is stopped. I've also seen the indicator get stuck on when flipping a track between mono and stereo. And of course the clip light on FX Chains has been busted since forever.

None of which are the problem you describe, but it does show that these indicators are somewhat problematic. I will try out the PC76 when I get home - it's one of those effects I've just never used.
2014/08/28 18:06:09
javahut
You can also have initial dynamic peaks that register on a peak meter, but the initial peak is too quick for some types of compressors to start reacting. It starts indicating compression when you increase the input because more of the "average" signal below the initial or higher peak causes the compression to kick in. So you end up shoving the peaks too high in order to make the compressor react to the part of the signal that has a enough higher average or rms value to make the compressor kick in.
 
This is not uncommon in "character" compressors at all. Many vari-mu type compressors act this way. The EMI RS124 even has a hold function that requires you, in some cases (depending on the source), to hit the compressor with the proper signal level, and then hold the compressor at that amount of compression while the track is restarted, until the initial peak kicks in. Then release the hold so the compressor starts reacting properly to the signal. If any long drops in signal occur within the track, the compressor must be put into hold again until the signal comes back in.
 
You can try this yourself with a compressor using the attack, release, and threshold settings. Just increase the attack time. You'll find it takes an increasingly lower threshold (or higher input) to get the same amount of compression, the more you increase the attack time. The initial peak is too fast for the compressors attack time. This will all vary depending on the source and its dynamics.
 
Hmmm... now that I look at the PC76, it does have an attack setting. So you still have this problem using the fastest attack, and an appropriate release time for the material?
 
I don't know if this is the case with the PC76 (I never use ProChannel). If it is, use a peak limiter just before the compressor so that it clips off the quick overs, but the threshold of the peak limiter is too high to affect any of the rest of the signal. Then only the PC76 would compress the rest or majority of the signal, and add its "character" to the track.
2014/08/28 18:58:38
Keni
Some interesting thoughts and ideas guys... Thanks...

I'm just confused as I've lived with 1176 compressors for so long that it has been an easy goto for me... Between this and the ca2a/s-type I've been very pleased with the results overall and have mostly felt as comfortable in their' uses as I am in the analog world... But this one issue keeps coming up and causing me grief... This is one of those uses I've done so often (analog) that I can't believe these LED readings. I don't hear any distortion and my signal level is well under zero at any point, so I don't see any unusual data... Just the LED causing me concern...

I guess I'm also a bit worried that my aging ears aren't noticing some distortion and my eyes are alerting me...? I guess that could be... I just hate not being able to use the 76 as the all-purpose tool I've always used 1176's for...

Thanks for all the thoughts and ideas... I truly appreciate them...

Keni
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