wanna love X3
on a totally different subject, does anyone see what I mean regarding layers vs lanes on the videos? please share some light if I am blind.

I watched the two videos on layers, and I've added some comments to the X3 one.
For what it's worth, I think you have valid points and you made yourself very clear in the two videos. Craig says it best, "we've lost 20% but gained 150%". I'm not sure I agree with him because I myself tend to fall into the 20% rather than the 150%... but that said, I can appreciate what Cakewalk were going for with X3.
 
It'd be nice to have layers back but I'm definitely not holding my breath. And in the meantime, I'm able to be productive with X3.

Anderton
When X3 first came out there were a lot of complaints about comping and what was lost with layers. However, over time most people understood that they lost about 20% of what layers could do in order to have comping that was 150% better. Take Lanes can still do most of what layers could do, as detailed in my Sound on Sound article, and you can always record your comps then drag them into standard tracks if you want the full array of track editing features, which is even more flexible than layers.

All valid Craig! but for only for COMPiNG, the oh-so-necessary but oh-so-brain-damaging-neuron-burning task all producers (me included) become OCD'ed from. Have you seen my videos? Let me ask you this If you were to chose beetween comping all day, and being creative all day and experimenting and having fun and mold parts and variations, what would you chose!

stickman393

wanna love X3
on a totally different subject, does anyone see what I mean regarding layers vs lanes on the videos? please share some light if I am blind.

I watched the two videos on layers, and I've added some comments to the X3 one.
For what it's worth, I think you have valid points and you made yourself very clear in the two videos. Craig says it best, "we've lost 20% but gained 150%". I'm not sure I agree with him because I myself tend to fall into the 20% rather than the 150%... but that said, I can appreciate what Cakewalk were going for with X3.
 
It'd be nice to have layers back but I'm definitely not holding my breath. And in the meantime, I'm able to be productive with X3.

I'm giving up on any hope they'll bring it back really, I just needed to make sure you could not do in x3 what you could in 8.5, and there's no valid workaround. Working on multiple audio tracks and managing gain change, plugins, volume, automation on multiple tracks while you're trying out different ideas, I mean it would get crazy overwhelming - You summed it up perfectly in your comment. Lanes might be clearer for some, but they certainly are less powerfull from a creative stand point

You can also right click an empty area, and select a track template.
Saving a track template is quick as well.
Takes no time.

wanna love X3
All valid Craig! but for only for COMPiNG, the oh-so-necessary but oh-so-brain-damaging-neuron-burning task all producers (me included) become OCD'ed from.

 
Much less so since X3...it's the fastest comping I've used, including Logic.
 

Have you seen my videos?

 
Yes. Did you read my articles? I think you would realize that Take Lanes can do tricks that go way beyond comping, like building up massed choral vocal parts and such.
 

Let me ask you this If you were to chose beetween comping all day, and being creative all day and experimenting and having fun and mold parts and variations, what would you chose!

I do both with Sonar X3, that's why I like it so much. I make drum loops exactly the same way you were creating loops with Layers, except I do them with tracks in a track folder. I can work just as fast as you do with layers, and when I decide to do actual production with the loops, I have more flexibility because they're on tracks and can have separate processing, automation, and so on. It's the best of both worlds - I can work really fast as a scratch pad, but when it's time to move from writing to production, I don't have to do anything. It's all ready for bouncing/mixing/EQ etc.
 
Then when i need to overdub vocals or lead guitars, I comp if I need to and get that element done pretty much effortlessly. When I need to crossfade, I collapse to the parent track, do my crossfades, then open the lanes again.
 
The way you're using Layers is like a subset of using tracks. It's really no faster than using tracks, and it's less flexible. I understand that due to personal preference you'd rather use Layers than tracks in a track folder, but I can't think of any practical reason why.
 
Of course, there is no law against doing what feels comfortable to you. If you like the way Layers worked in 8.5, then keep using them that way. At this point I know X3 very well and have found out how to get the best use out of Take Lanes, Tracks, and Comping in both the songwriting and production/mixing process. Going back to 8.5.3 would be like putting up speed limit signs on my creativity. I can do what I want to do eventually, it would just take a lot longer to do it.
 
The amount of hours I lost learning how to do things "the X3 way" were an investment that has saved me many, many more hours in the long run.

I DO believe it comes down to a personal preference, as to how one approaches using each Sonar release.
 
At the same time, I believe that truly investing time and effort into understanding the new features will eventually pay off with an increase of productivity - but only if that time and effort is applied to learning the new ways of doing things, and not by trying to force the new stuff into behaving like the older stuff.
 
It IS a bit of sacrifice, but for most folks I believe one that is well worth it.
 
Bob Bone
 

Very good advice Bob. It is clear that X3 is not Sonar 8.5.3 and we who have adopted the new ways of doing things have been rewarded with far better ease of use. 
 
In the end its a new program. Learn it.

robert_e_bone
 
At the same time, I believe that truly investing time and effort into understanding the new features will eventually pay off with an increase of productivity - but only if that time and effort is applied to learning the new ways of doing things, and not by trying to force the new stuff into behaving like the older stuff.
 

Only if the basic model doesn't change from version to version, as it did from 8 to X1 to X2 to X3.
 
I'm still waiting for the dust to settle.
 

wanna love X3
there's no valid workaround. Working on multiple audio tracks and managing gain change, plugins, volume, automation on multiple tracks while you're trying out different ideas, I mean it would get crazy overwhelming

I can think of a really easy workaround. All the tracks you want to use as layers routed to a bus. All those tracks in a folder so you can mute and solo collectively. No effects and automation on the tracks, all effects and automation controlled from the buses. Just like lanes, only with more features (eg: panning of individual lanes, lane specific effects if you want them, etc).

wanna love X3
I just needed to make sure you could not do in x3 what you could in 8.5, and there's no valid workaround. Working on multiple audio tracks and managing gain change, plugins, volume, automation on multiple tracks while you're trying out different ideas, I mean it would get crazy overwhelming

But there are plenty of workarounds. Just because there are volume, automation, plug-ins, etc. parameters does't mean you have to use them. You didn't use them in your video, you don't need to use them with tracks. And if you want to make a change on all the tracks at once, there's quick grouping. But you don't even have to do that.
 
If you want to process everything and automate everything, you can use a bus as described above. That's a super-simple option; you can also drag your finished tracks into Take Lanes. But based on your video, you're mostly playing around with creating a couple of tracks, not putting an entire song in layers.
 
Really, as mentioned above creating a track template where everything goes to a bus not only solves what you need to do, but offers more flexibility...in fact it might be faster to drag in a track template than create all those layers. And you can do comping, too 
 
Regardless, I am VERY glad you started this thread because the ideas contributed by others of having a "scratchpad" track template for doing "layers on steroids" is great, and one that I plan to use.