• Songs
  • Out in the Open-Original X3 Studio (p.2)
2016/02/13 15:34:06
bapu
Thanks for sharing.
2016/02/16 14:08:48
daryl1968
Good song John B. I particularly like the lyrics. 
Mix-wise, the piano is a tad left sided with nothing to balance it on the right which makes the overall mix sound one sided.
Drums could come up in the mix for my taste.
2016/02/16 15:51:16
Johnbee58
Thanks, Bapu & Daryl.  I usually mix the piano a bit left because of the headroom situation.
 
John B.
2016/02/16 16:48:10
jkoseattle
Johnbee58
Thanks Mark.
 
In regards to anything "conflicting", in the opinion of the creator, nothing is conflicting here.  I would've never considered this song complete and presented it here had I thought anything "conflicted". Theoretically, the "conflicting" chord is a G major with C in the bass. On the bass part I emphasize the B (ie the major 3rd in the scale degree of tonic (I) G chord) in the bottom a lot here. (See, I know theory too.  I've studied it). Chords like this are frequently used in jazz and I have an intense love for jazz.  That's my style.  If you think it sucks or "conflicts" , that's how you see it then. I appreciate your suggestions but I'm happy with the arrangement of this song.  I'm sorry if you don't like it.  I guess my music doesn't really suit everybody.  That's life.
 
Peace and good luck.
 
John B.




OK, OK, we're just voicing our reactions. But if you're going to go all theory commando here...
 
While technically what you are playing is a G major chord with a C in the bass, that's not what people are hearing. What you've really got here is a Cmaj9 chord, which is formed by having a G chord over a bass C. That's not what is "conflicting". (Though it's a different key, this famous song is a great example. First chord is the regular major, then he switches to the maj9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvRGh2NEjSU.)
 
In "Out in the Open", what "conflicts" is that the bass then goes down to the B, which we naturally hear as a I-V progression (C to G, or in this case, Cmaj9 to G 1st inv). This sounds nice. But immediately after we hear that B in the bass, we hear another C in the piano left hand, so while the bass is signaling a change to the G chord, the piano says that no, we're still on the Cmaj9. THEN the bass reiterates it's opinion that we've moved to the 1st inv G chord by repeating its B, but its following arpeggio goes from B up to G and C, so on one hand it's signalling the G chord, it also then plays a C. Which leads me to believe you really are still on the Cmaj9 chord.
 
I just can't think of any example where a chord jumps from root to 3rd inversion (which is what a Cmaj9/B would be) unless it's in passing to some other chord. Since most of us have no precedent for such a progression in our musical memories, we are more liable to hear that B as ushering in a G/B, which makes perfect harmonic sense anyway, and which is why it sounds "conflicted" -- you didn't really move to the G chord, but are actually still on the Cmaj9. It's actually pretty damn fascinating when you look at it.
 
None of this is "wrong" of course, it's just that I think you are rubbing people's natural expectations the wrong way, and we're just pointing that out to you. Keep it this way, but it's important for you to be aware how it's likely being heard by a large percentage of your listeners.
 
I'm all for breaking rules, the more breakage the better. But you have to know when they're being broken so the listener is aware it's on purpose.
 
Also, while writing this post, I got to spend more time listening to the song, and I like your vocals more and more. You do sound just like the lead for Flaming Lips, and it's a cool sound.
2016/02/16 18:31:55
Johnbee58
Well OK.  Just to let you know, when I was working on this I DID actually use C  in the bass there (if my memory serves me correctly.  I'm not at my DAW now, but I remember I moved the MIDI a half step).  Initially, my "music sense" dictated it should be as you say, but the more I listened to it, the more conflicting that sounded to me, so I moved the bass down a half step to the B there.  Then, just to make sure everything was jiving I looked at the piano MIDI and the bass and all the notes matched in both parts so I did what made sense to me at the time.  I could very easily change it back to C on that note, but then I'd be back to square 1.  There are a couple of explanations as to why this made more sense to me.  Number 1 is I listen to an awful lot of Jazz, where sometimes things happen that don't always make sense to the listener, at least initially.  Number 2, the piano is actually an EZ Keys pattern at that point.  I used the EZ Key loops at some places in the song and do my own patterns in other places. I generally come up with a chord progression, then go to the EZ Keys browser and let that do its thing.  Sometimes I have to edit a bit as the patterns don't always jive with my chords. All I know is it makes perfect sense to my ears.  Maybe I'm weird, I don't know, but it sounds great to me.  You, of course, and everybody else are entitled to your opinion, but I have had a lot of positive feedback on this tune as well.
 
JB
2016/02/16 18:44:47
Johnbee58
Oh, Also;
JKose, Thanks for you kudos on the vocals  I struggle with singing these days because of chronic asthma, but I'm I glad my effort is being noticed.
 
JB
2016/02/16 19:42:05
markno999
Interesting thread… Generally song comments have been about mixing tips, recording techniques, plug-ins, effects,  performance, musical style, et.al…. or just fun.    Not too many comments getting in the weeds on music theory unless someone is way out in left field or the composer is asking for guidance.   This song is certainly not harmonically incorrect and does not sound remotely dissonant or wrong in any way.  If it were there might have been other comments to that effect.
 
My personal comment and some of the others were about the swing or lack of swing between the Drums, Bass and Piano.    I can tell you musically I didn't hear anything "wrong" and to the contrary I think it is pretty cool.   I would just loosen it up a bit so it just swings a little, everything else is quite good. 
 
There are many ways to skin a cat chordally and it is ultimately up to the artist to determine the best route to express the song to its’ full potential.  Do I use major, minor, altered chord, triton substitutions,   Should I go Dm7, G7, C or Dm, Ab7, C, or Dm7, Db7, C or Dm7, G7b5 to C or Dm, G13b9 to CMaj7?   Doesn’t much matter as long as everyone is going in the same direction. 
 
Many new people here, so maybe the status quo is changing, however, I personally wonder how productive comments about chord choices in the Songs Forum are unless someone is specifically asking for assistance or the choice they have made is obviously bad? These theory discussions have generally been reserved for the Techniques forum.   The chord choices in this song are maybe not pop-oriented, canned rock progressions but they are definitely interesting.  Reminded me a bit of some of the early Steely Dan.  They certainly made a career on using the 4th as the chord root.  G/C or Cmaj9 if you prefer, and using passing tones in the process.
 
There are plenty of examples in music where half step intervals within a chord produce interesting harmonies whether they are at different octaves or the same octave.  
 
Anyway, sorry to derail your thread, I just wanted to say I am not part of the “we are voicing our opinions” about your chord choices   I like the song and thought it was pretty cool.

Regards
2016/02/16 22:50:37
Guitarpima
I like the song. The vocal is not as bad as my own so that's cool but I see where your going. You have a Neil Young vibe about your voice. I can't say I like the bass sound but it's a cool line.
 
Nice work!
2016/02/17 08:25:35
Johnbee58
Mark-Thanks again for "coming to my aid".
 
Guitarpima-Thank you for listening.  I thought the funky bass sound suited the piano vibe here.  Also, thanks for the Neil Young compare.  My voice once was more solid, but as I told JKose above, I recently developed chronic asthma.  So between the condition itself and the meds I have to take for it, my voice tracks have become a line-for-line affair in the recording process.  It's frustrating as hell, but I appreciate that some people are taking notice that I still have something to offer there.
 
JB
2016/02/17 14:49:39
jkoseattle
It's a shame that composition comments are so much less welcome than production comments. Message received. 
 
It's always been interesting to me that production-type comments are always met with gratitude, while composition comments make people defensive. Writing a good song is way harder than recording a song well. Both are similar, though, in that they are ultimately subjective artistic choices, and both can be improved with concerted practice. I've been in countless conversations with people over the years who spend a lot of money and effort at making their music sound awesome, and it really does, and I congratulate them, and then they tell me how they haven't been able to 'make it big', and I usually think to myself "Sure, you've got some great recordings of not-so-great music". But people don't want to hear that. For whatever reason, people refuse to believe that "All you Need Is Love" is a masterpiece not because it's well-recorded but because it's well-written. And that writing a good song is some kind of magic lightning in a bottle thing as opposed to a skill that can be honed like any other.
 
I'm not specifically talking about "Out in the Open" here, I'm speaking generally now. Anyway, message received.
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