Hello all,

I just bought this Thomann branded Medeli SP5500 stage piano that got 559 in-built voices/sounds.

My problem is that there's no any kind of instrument definition files on the manufacturer's nor Thomann's site.

Would anyone help me to build the .ins file for the stage piano?
I'm not asking people to do the work for me, but just help me to get started as I'm not so familiar with MIDI and .ins file syntax.

Here's the manual where should be all necessary MIDI specifications needed:
http://www.muzasound.com/download/SP5500_Manual_G06_080107.pdf

Maybe the sounds are originally from some other keyboard/synth from some other manufacturer and there's already an .ins file for it? In that case let me know if there's any other keyboards has 559 voices so I can compare it's instrument names to my SP5500 instrument names...

As far as I can tell there's no division into instrument banks, and instruments are numbered simply from 1 to 559 in the SP5500 user interface and the user's guide. Not sure if there's invisible banks underneath the UI.

I would happily do the trivial work of typing in all the instrument names etc. if someone would help me to get started.
Naturally I would share the completed file here for other potential SP5500 owners.

All the Best
//epinoia

PS. To be honest IMO it would be a good idea from forum administrators to create dedicated forum area for instrument definitions as I got 300 search results for them.. most of the threads were something like "is there ins file for my <put the name and model your new gear here>?"


EDIT: Corrected the amount of voices to 559, was mistyped as 599

It's been quiet here.

After I've played much around with sending "patch change" and "bank change" signals to SP5500 from Sonar, it starts to seem that the SP5500 supports only general midi. If that is correct I can use only 128 instruments out of 559 via MIDI. :(

In the manual I linked above, there's no word about anything else than general midi support and if the voices/patches are not divided into banks there's no way to make any use of the rest 431 instruments. Grrr.

If someone has any better knowledge how I could find a way to choose any of those 431 instruments via MIDI, please let me know.

<keywords for forum search engine>
sp 5500 sp-5500 thomann medeli instrument definition clifton
</keywords for forum search engine>

(EDIT: added another keyword)

Have you considered making your own .INS file? Usually the manufacturer does this, but sometimes the instrument owner takes it upon himself or herself.

It's not too difficult, if you can get a text-file list of the sounds. Even a PDF file from the manufacturer's Web site should work, if they list all the sounds in it. Medeli has .PDFs of their products, with the patches listed in them. With a free (or trial version of a ) PDF editor, you could get the names from that list.

There are Web sites that show the overall structure of an .INS file, but they're basically just text files listing the patches in the instrument. Start with the General MIDI one if you have to, and as long as that works with your piano, modify it to add the other patches from the list in the PDF. It may take some trial and error, but you could probably make one yourself. I modified a Yamaha S80 .INS file and a Roland D-20 .INS file for my S30 and D-10 keyboards, and they work great.

I haven't seen much evidence that anyone else on the Internet is in your situation. When I did a Google search for "Thomann/Medeli SP5500" this post was the first hit--and that's for the entire Internet!

Good luck!

Hello planetearth,

Thanks for your kind reply.

Yes, I would like to make the .ins file by myself. I already made neat excel and txt files where I copied every voice name from PDF-manual and it's corresponding SP5500 voice number and tidied up the list so I could easily add it by copying and pasting them to some "skeleton" .ins file with proper formatting.

Problem I still have, is that the 559 voices/instruments do not seem to correspond to any logical MIDI bank/patch signals. 128 General MIDI voices/instruments correspond with General MIDI standard, but I cannot seem to choose any of the other voices out of the 559 total.

As probably everyone knows, for 128 GM instruments there's .ins definition with every version of Sonar, so yes, I can use them properly.

It's not the end of the world and I probably would not use the SP5500 voices anyway when making end product. But it would be nice and straightforward to harness all the voices of SP5500 when making drafts/demos/experiments with plain MIDI before working out the songs with proper VSTi instruments for example.

SP5500 is very low-budget instrument so the voices are not too great, so it's not a big deal, but it baffles me why would any synth/stage piano manufacturer load so many sounds to an instrument that has MIDI capabilities, but not allowing to control or choose but only 128 of them via MIDI.

If I later find out that the voices are divided into banks that I'm able to change via MIDI, I would be happy, but until then I guess I just have to live with the 128 voices when not playing live and manually choosing SP5500 voices.

Thanks again for tips. :)

You might want to take a look at an .INS file that has banks to see how it's done and experiment from there.

My Yamaha S30 has more than 384 patches in it, organized into banks, and I can access all of them. Same goes for the D-10. It has "Performance" and "Multi-timbral" modes, and each of those has 128 patches.

Does your piano transmit MIDI program change commands? If it does, you might want to use a MIDI inspector tool to view what it's sending when you choose one of the programs. These tools are freely available on the Internet, but if you can't find one, I have one I can send you. You could also set SONAR to record every MIDI-related event and record yourself changing programs to see what it captures. From that, you might be able to figure out what the piano needs to "see" to respond to patch changes correctly.

Oh nice, good idea, I'll try that. :D

(I have also Korg N1R, which has over 1000 patches, but there's no problems with those as the patches are divided neatly in logical banks.)

I've managed to send standard (and documented in SP5500 manual) bank changes from Sonar to SP5500, but I found only the same 128 GM instruments all over again in each bank. :(

I went through over 900 banks and it seems that there's 16383 of them. o.O
As I went through the 900 from start, maybe I should skip 1000 banks at time and see if there's any luck at later banks. I mean if for example if somehow one bank is from 1-4000, other at 4001-8000... and so on. Cannot test it right now as I just reinstalled Win7 and I got no Sonar LE yet installed on this system. Banks 1-900 are definitely same GM all over again unless I have misunderstood something completely.

But I'd gladly try MIDI inspector tool to see if there's something undocumented going on when I change voices manually on SP5500. Which tool you would recommend? I'll also PM my email to you if you would like to send the file, unless you can post the official download URL here. :)

Epinoia


I've managed to send standard (and documented in SP5500 manual) bank changes from Sonar to SP5500, but I found only the same 128 GM instruments all over again in each bank.

I went through over 900 banks and it seems that there's 16383 of them. o.O

That is bizarre!

I'll send you the MIDI inspector when I get home. Maybe it will help you sort out what's happening.

Finally found the tool you referred from: http://www.e.kth.se/~e94_...ler/Program/MIDItools/  (as we had problems with transfering it as an email attachment)
I also found another MIDI "swiss knife" called MIDI-OX at http://www.midiox.com/  (supports copying and pasting to clipboard)

Thanks again for pointing me into right direction. :)

Both tools will do fine if one needs to inspect MIDI in/out data.

This is what I did: I sent voice/instrument changes 001-010 to the MIDI inspector from SP-5500.

SP-5500 instruments 1-10, The voice names from the LCD of the keyboard:

001    Stereo Grand Piano 1
002    Stereo Grand Piano 2
003    Stereo Grand Piano / W
004    Grand Piano / W
005    Stereo Piano Dark
006    Octave Piano 1
007    Octave Piano 2
008    Synth Piano
009    Dreamscape
010    Piano & Strings

Here's all the data that MIDI-OX inspected (i did nothing else than browsed voices from 001 to 010):
I changed the form of data from hexadecimals to decimals:

 TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT                  
     468991  2   3    176     7    86    1  ---  CC: Volume               
     468992  2   3    176    91    30    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth         
     468993  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth         
     468994  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB             
     468995  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change           
     468996  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
     468998  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
 
     472214  2   3    176     7    98    1  ---  CC: Volume               
     472215  2   3    176    91    30    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth         
     472218  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth         
     472219  2   3    176     0    51    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB             
     472220  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change           
     472221  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
     472222  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
 
     472551  2   3    176     7    92    1  ---  CC: Volume               
     472552  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth         
     472553  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth         
     472554  2   3    176     0     8    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB             
     472555  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change           
     472556  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
     472557  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
 
     473985  2   3    176     7    92    1  ---  CC: Volume               
     473986  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth         
     473987  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth         
     473988  2   3    176     0    50    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB             
     473990  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change           
     473991  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
     473992  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
 
     474798  2   3    176     7    87    1  ---  CC: Volume               
     474799  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth         
     474800  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth         
     474801  2   3    176     0    16    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB             
     474802  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change           
     474805  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
     474806  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
 
     475499  2   3    176     7    87    1  ---  CC: Volume               
     475500  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth         
     475501  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth         
     475502  2   3    176     0    25    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB             
     475503  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change           
     475504  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
     475505  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
 
     475684  2   3    176     7    91    1  ---  CC: Volume               
     475687  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth         
     475688  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth         
     475689  2   3    176     0    26    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB             
     475692  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change           
     475693  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
     475694  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
 
     476360  2   3    176     7    84    1  ---  CC: Volume               
     476361  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth         
     476362  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth         
     476363  2   3    176     0    49    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB             
     476364  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change           
     476365  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
     476366  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
 
     477127  2   3    176     7    96    1  ---  CC: Volume               
     477128  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth         
     477131  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth         
     477132  2   3    176     0    45    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB             
     477134  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change           
     477135  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
     477136  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
 
     478744  2   3    176     7    92    1  ---  CC: Volume               
     478745  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth         
     478746  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth         
     478747  2   3    176     0    44    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB             
     478748  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change           
     478749  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
     478750  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano     
    

How does the data seem to be to you?

And is the sample of data of 10 voice changes enough to tell if those voices can be changed properly from Cakewalk as well?

Well, I'm glad you found something that shows you the MIDI data stream.

I'm not familiar with MIDI Ox, so I'll install it onto my computer to compare it to the data MIDIView shows me. It appears that MIDI Ox shows you more...but not quite enough. For example, I see "Status" and two "Data" entries; MIDIView doesn't show those. Unfortunately, even with this additional information, I don't see your programs actually changing. I see a lot of events, and I see "Bank MSB" and "PC" Acc. Grand Piano"--but they're all the same, even though you said you tried ten different patches.

MIDIView showed different banks and patches, as I recall. I'll check that again tonight, too.

I see that "Data2" is changing, but it's not consistent, and the values it shows aren't in any sequence. I assume you simply changed the presets from "1" to "10", and you didn't jump around between them. In theory, you should see the numbers increment by 1 each time. They don't, and the name of the patch appears to stay the same.

Try choosing one of the higher-numbered patches to see what MIDI Ox shows you. Then we'll meet here again and compare notes!

Hi,
Taking a look at the MIDI spec from the manual it would appear that the device just uses the CC#0 bank select MSB not LSB. Looking at what you've recorded via MIDI-OX you need to send a combination of bank select MSB = 11 and program change =1 to get the first grand piano then MSB 51 and PC = 1 to get grand piano 2 and so on.

You're on the right track with what you're doing, so I suggest you just keep working at the different voices and you may see a pattern starting to build up. You can see if you look at the voice list in the manual that they are kinda based on the GM voice mapping. But go ahead and build a list just noting the MSB and the control change data 2 values.

Once you've got them all down I can probably help you to build an ins file.
SysExJohn.