• SONAR
  • Instrument definitions for Thomann/Medeli SP5500 (p.2)
2010/04/19 18:20:35
Epinoia
planetearth

I see that "Data2" is changing, but it's not consistent, and the values it shows aren't in any sequence. I assume you simply changed the presets from "1" to "10", and you didn't jump around between them. In theory, you should see the numbers increment by 1 each time. They don't, and the name of the patch appears to stay the same.

Try choosing one of the higher-numbered patches to see what MIDI Ox shows you. Then we'll meet here again and compare notes!

Yeah, I cleared the MIDI-OX, then just pressed the key that selects first voice/patch "001 Stereo Grand Piano 1", then I just pressed 9 times the "+"-button that switches to next voice/patch.



 I browsed through last 10 voices/patches of SP-5500:
(Voice numbers and names from SP-5500 manual/LCD display)

550    Pan Flute & Strings Pad
551    Standard Kit
552    Room Kit
553    Power Kit
554    Electronic Kit
555    Analog Kit
556    Jazz Kit
557    Brush Kit
558    Orchestra Kit
559    SFX Kit

Again, I did not do anything else, but switched those voices/patches manually from SP-5500.

This is what MIDI-OX recorded:

 TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT                  

    217475  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
    217476  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
    217477  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
    217478  2   3    176     0    44    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
    217479  2   3    176    20     0    1  ---  Control Change       
    217480  2   3    192    75   ---    1  ---  PC: Pan Flute        
    217481  2   3    192    75   ---    1  ---  PC: Pan Flute        

    217897  2   3    176     7    65    1  ---  CC: Volume           
    217898  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
    217899  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
    217900  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
    217901  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
    217903  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
    217904  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 
    217905  2   3    192     0   ---    1  ---  PC: Acc. Grand Piano 
    217906  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
    217907  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       

    218358  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
    218359  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
    218360  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
    218361  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
    218362  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
    218363  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
    218364  2   3    192     8   ---    1  ---  PC: Celesta          
    218365  2   3    192     8   ---    1  ---  PC: Celesta          
    218366  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
    218367  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       

    218819  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
    218820  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
    218821  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
    218822  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
    218823  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
    218824  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
    218825  2   3    192    16   ---    1  ---  PC: Drawbar Organ    
    218826  2   3    192    16   ---    1  ---  PC: Drawbar Organ    
    218827  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
    218828  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       

    219300  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
    219301  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
    219302  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
    219303  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
    219304  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
    219306  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
    219307  2   3    192    24   ---    1  ---  PC: Nylon Str Guitar 
    219308  2   3    192    24   ---    1  ---  PC: Nylon Str Guitar 
    219309  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
    219310  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       

    220022  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
    220023  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
    220024  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
    220025  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
    220026  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
    220027  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
    220028  2   3    192    25   ---    1  ---  PC: Steel Str Guitar 
    220029  2   3    192    25   ---    1  ---  PC: Steel Str Guitar 
    220030  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
    220031  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       

    225897  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
    225898  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
    225899  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
    225900  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
    225901  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
    225902  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
    225903  2   3    192    32   ---    1  ---  PC: Acoustic Bass    
    225904  2   3    192    32   ---    1  ---  PC: Acoustic Bass    
    225905  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
    225906  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       

    226599  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
    226600  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
    226601  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
    226602  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
    226603  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
    226604  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
    226605  2   3    192    40   ---    1  ---  PC: Violin           
    226606  2   3    192    40   ---    1  ---  PC: Violin           
    226607  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
    226608  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       

    227241  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
    227242  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
    227243  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
    227244  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
    227245  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
    227246  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
    227247  2   3    192    48   ---    1  ---  PC: String Ens 1     
    227248  2   3    192    48   ---    1  ---  PC: String Ens 1     
    227249  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
    227251  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       

    228745  2   3    176     7    64    1  ---  CC: Volume           
    228746  2   3    176    91    40    1  ---  CC: Reverb Depth     
    228747  2   3    176    93     0    1  ---  CC: Chorus Depth     
    228748  2   3    176     0    11    1  ---  CC: Bank MSB         
    228749  2   3    176   123     0    1  ---  CC: All Notes Off    
    228750  2   3    176    20     1    1  ---  Control Change       
    228751  2   3    192    50   ---    1  ---  PC: SynthStrings 1   
    228752  2   3    192    50   ---    1  ---  PC: SynthStrings 1   
    228753  2   3    224     0    64    1  ---  Pitch Bend           
    228754  2   3    176     1     0    1  ---  CC: Modulation       


@SysExJohn
As I'm quite stranger to MIDI at technical level, I'm still trying to decode some of the details of your message. :P
But yeah, I figured out that I should look at the lines with "Bank MSB" and from those lines I should look at the "DATA2" column and then try to see the pattern. Maybe the DATA1 column on "PC: some_instrument_name" is also important as it seems to change a lot?

Maybe it would be easier for me to visualize and find the pattern if I would clean up unnecessary lines of the MIDI-OX output:

CC: Volume           
CC: Reverb Depth     
CC: Chorus Depth     
CC: Bank MSB         
CC: All Notes Off    
Control Change       
PC: SynthStrings 1   
PC: SynthStrings 1   
Pitch Bend           
CC: Modulation       

Maybe these 3 lines that are left are the important ones when changing voices/patches or what do you think?


Thanks again for help both of you. :)

2010/04/19 18:29:41
Epinoia
By the way, here's the tidied up version of the complete voice/patch list from the PDF-manual if it would be helpful for another SP-5500 owner at the future.

Not sure if the list is way too long for this forum, but I'll remove the post if it makes the page too heavy or something.

EDIT
Yeah the page got quite heavy when all 559 instruments were listed.
I instead made the instrument list as a public document at Google Docs:
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfkmwxtv_33ck2sz7gb
2010/04/19 20:50:56
planetearth
Timi,
SysExJohn seems to have a good handle on this, and I hope he can make more sense of it. I have no doubt he knows more about MIDI data dumps than I do--it's even part of his name!

That said, it still appears the data you're receiving via MIDI Ox doesn't correspond to the program changes you're sending. I also still don't see a direct correlation between the program changes and the programs showing up in MIDI Ox. The program numbers don't increase consistently, and the program names aren't the same as what they're supposed to be. The MSB even only changes once--and yet it appears to be wrong most of the time: The time when DATA2's value is "44" is the only time the MSB is correct in your latest list. Every other time, DATA2 is "11" and the program name doesn't match what your list states the program should be.

I'll try MIDI Ox tonight to see if it gives me similar (and odd) results. I'd still like to try to get MIDIView to you. Despite what the Google gods have decided, I think you should be allowed to have it! I'll try sending it to you via this forum as a .JPG. It won't be a .JPG, of course; I'll just change the extension. If you have another e-mail account, you could send me that. And if none of that works, I'll post the stupid file on my own Web site!
2010/04/20 01:35:44
Epinoia
That said, it still appears the data you're receiving via MIDI Ox doesn't correspond to the program changes you're sending. I also still don't see a direct correlation between the program changes and the programs showing up in MIDI Ox. The program numbers don't increase consistently, and the program names aren't the same as what they're supposed to be. The MSB even only changes once--and yet it appears to be wrong most of the time: The time when DATA2's value is "44" is the only time the MSB is correct in your latest list. Every other time, DATA2 is "11" and the program name doesn't match what your list states the program should be.


Well, as I got into it, I captured all of the 599 voices/patches from SP-5500 and put them all into an Excel/Openoffice spreadsheet and uploaded it into Google Docs for generations to come as public spreadsheet:

http://spreadsheets.googl...Yg4SLA&output=html
(note: if you scroll fast you need to wait a bit until more rows load into your browser, all 599 instruments are there)

I tried to clean up any unnecessary data and here are the current columns of the spreadsheet:

  • SP-5500 # = SP-5500 Voice Number from LCD/User guide
  • SP-5500 Voice Name = SP-5500 Voice name from LCD/User guide
  • STATUS = Original column from MIDI-OX
  • DATA1 = Original column from MIDI-OX
  • DATA2 = Original column from MIDI-OX
  • EVENT = Original column from MIDI-OX

I removed these MIDI-OX columns as unnecessary:

  • Timestamp (irrelevant)
  • In ("2" in each line)
  • Port ("3" in each line)
  • Chan ("1" in each line)
  • Note ("---" in each line)

I also removed any lines with "CC: Volume", "CC: Reverb Depth" and "CC: Chorus Depth".

If you take a look at the spreadsheet, does the inconsistency look more desperate now?
I cannot see the logic there even now. :S

Still to do: compare MIDI-OX data to MIDIView data, I'll post comparisons as soon as I can get to it.
2010/04/20 01:51:28
Epinoia
Here's screenshots of MIDIView as I browsed all voices/patches from 001-005 and 006-010

Attached Image(s)

2010/04/20 01:53:15
Epinoia

Attached Image(s)

2010/04/20 04:36:40
SysExJohn
Sorry about the delay in responding, Mondays are incredibly busy days for me. I spend about 4 hours teaching, in three different places, with a couple of hours travelling thrown in.   By 7 p.m. I've had it!

And, excellent work that you've done so far. Well done, you're on the way. This is NOT meant to be patronising, really. So many people I respond to (in other places), want things on a plate and aren't prepared to put in a little time to get what they want and to learn in the process. (Rant over!!) ;-)

So, a short MIDI lesson:
In the early days of General MIDI (GM) a MIDI sequence just had to have a "program select" message in it, one per MIDI channel used, to select the voice (instrument) that you wanted. You were allowed to choose from a standard set of 128 instruments. See the MIDI data tables at http://www.midi.org/techspecs/gm1sound.php

Of course there are a lot more than one type of Acoustic Grand Pianos around, so the MIDI specification allowed manufacturers to create, and users to select from, "banks" of sounds, all of a similar type, by using one or other, or both of, two "bank select" messages.

These are known as "Bank select MSB" and "Bank Select LSB". (Most Significant Byte and Least Significant Byte.) In theory this allowed for more than 16,000 different banks! In fact most manufacturers use just one or other of the two messages. If you look at the great work you've done getting these logged by MIDI-OX you'll see that your keyboard uses "Bank select MSB." Actually there was another way of finding out, by looking at the MIDI specification, at the back of the manual you posted the link to, it had "Controller 0" listed (MSB), but not "Controller 32" (LSB).

This is also known by tech-heads, geeks or nerds (such as me) as CC#0. Why? Because it identifies the actual message embedded in the MIDI file and sent to the keyboard. See here (if you dare): http://www.midi.org/techspecs/midimessages.php looking at table 3. ;-)

Your next step is to take the table you've created with MID-OX and collect it together in the format you'll need it in for reference for creating your ".ins" file.

What you need to do is collect together all the instruments of the same type e.g. the 12 (001 to 012) Acoustic Grand Pianos, then the Bright Acoustic Pianos (013 to 022) and so on. Some will have several entries, some only one. You need to collect the "data 2" value from the MSB entry.

The list should look something like this:
Acoustic Grand Piano
GM     St.W.     St.1        St.Dk.     etc.
0          8          11          16          etc.

Bright Acoustic Piano
GM     BP1.W.     etc.
0        8              etc.

Do the normal "melody" voices first and I'll come back and tell you how to list the drum sets shortly. I've forgotten, so I need to refresh my memory. And don't lose the list of voices for the SP5500, you've created, you'll be able to copy and paste those into the instrument file you'll be creating.

Meanwhile you could open an instrument (.ins) file in Windows Notepad, or any other simple text editor. Preferably not WordPad as it'll try to put special editing characters in the file which will mess it up. At this point don't try to change anything unless you make a backup copy of the file to work on. Try to find a file of a similar type of piano keyboard, maybe a Korg or a Kurzweil instrument. Try to work out, if you can, how it is structured.

That's it for lesson 1.
I have to prepare for my course this afternoon.
Hope it helps?
SysExJohn.
2010/04/20 13:08:18
planetearth
Wow! I know I learned a lot here--thanks, John! Very thorough, and very-well put!

As someone who has to train people to use computers and productivity software, I appreciate when other "techies" are really teachers first and support people second.

Timi's work has also been very thorough, and it seems you two are close to getting this resolved.

I guess the reason the program change numbers didn't appear to be consistent was because they were addressing banks of programs, and those banks/programs weren't necessarily one after the other?

At any rate, I certainly appreciate your efforts on this. Thanks again!
2010/04/20 15:51:06
SysExJohn
Well thankee sir! I do my best.

Actually I'm a techy first.

In the Data Processing industry in 1966 until the mid 70s (assembler level and machine code programmer) when I switched to data comms. Then later to the digital telecoms industry and lastly to satellite comms. These last two as a data comms protocol specialist, ISDN "D" channel and other horrid, horrid stuff! MIDI is easy compared to that!

I started full time data comms training in the mid 90s, e.g. teaching ISPs how DSL worked for the main UK carrier, then won a contract training telecomms employees (around 2000 over a period of 5 years) then went several times round the world teaching the new digital satellite technologies. You see reporters using it to report back from very remote or war torn locations. I got severe "burn out" from too much travelling and lecturing with not enough breaks!

The first PC I built was a 486! I've just built a quad core x64, 4xHDD, 8GB machine as my main DAW with SONAR 7 PE. It rocks!

I'm now semi-retired and teach MIDI part time to adult education classes. And I still spend too much time travelling!!!!!!!!!!!

It's been an interesting career! ;-)
But we all grow old eventually!
All the best,
SysExJohn.
2010/04/20 16:25:34
planetearth
Well John, you certainly know your stuff, and unlike the "techies" I've dealt with at IBM, Apple and others, you have the communication skills to actually help people. Most tech-support types can't seem to look people in the eye or laugh about anything that doesn't involve Star Wars.

Thanks again for your help!
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