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  • Kick and Bass (p.3)
2014/06/29 21:06:40
Anderton
Here are links to some songs you might find helpful because they're for a genre of music that requires a lot of both kick and bass.
 
This first song is by Kassav, one of my favorite groups. It's a more melodic song so it places the emphasis on the bass, but you can still hear the kick because it's emphasized both below and above the bass frequency-wise. Also, the arrangement has a lot to do with it, because the bass is sparse  - it plays its notes and gets out of the way.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoIMtOBim0M
 
Here's my latest music video, "Maladie Du Coeur" (the one where Paul P and joakes helped with making sure my French grammar was up to spec, thanks again guys!). The bass and kick will be dissected in my blog post that's scheduled for tomorrow. The main takeaway here is that the bass has a lot of highs, and scoops the lower mids to leave plenty of room for the kick and the guitars. The kick gets the really low frequencies to itself. It's also pretty obvious I don't slam the dynamics compared to other people, so feel free to crank up the volume 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsp5hOxRX1M
 
Finally, here's another song by Kassav. This is more uptempo. It still has a sparse bass arrangement, but note how the kick is emphasized to push the rhythm.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRQJyQrpVQs
2014/06/29 23:25:39
konradh
Craig, Thanks for the links.

Jim, I appreciate the positive comments--thanks. It is interesting that you note the highs in the bass because the advice I keep getting is to crank up the highs on the bass. Just goes to show you how easy it is to doubt yourself.

As for your comments about the track sounding retro, I have a lot of both Broadway and Beatles influence, and as a studio player I cut 1,000s of country records. Different people pick up on those different influences. (My more serious projects also have a lot of orchestration. This album isore tongue-in-cheek.)

Thanks again.
2014/06/30 00:01:36
Anderton
I listened to the clip, the bass articulation is fine...you don't need more highs on it. What needs work is the kick. I'd add a little more low mid on the bass, leave the ultra-low element of the kick, and work on getting more high-frequency kick definition. At that point you may or may not want to reduce the upper mids on the bass depending on where the kick falls.
 
Interestingly, in the next tune "All That I Missed" the kick has a ton of high frequency stuff you can work with...but that song doesn't really need it. I think both the kick and bass come through the way you want them to on that song. Both are clear and articulated.
 
The bottom line is that it seems there's a lot of variability with your material. This is NOT a bad thing, as each song can have its own character. It's not necessary for every song to have every element audible at all times. It's almost like your songs are mini-stories; stories have different characters and plots.
 
You might be better off embracing that rather than trying to resist based on "rules." Although you're asking for advice on mixing, I think the underlying issue here is about production. Mixing decisions follow naturally from production decisions.
 
The links I gave all involve music with a particular production style because they're designed for clubs and dance halls. Your music sounds like its home would be a playhouse. I scored a rock version of Midsummer Night's Dream once and found quickly that theatrical scoring is very different from creating an album, even a concept album. You may be in a similar situation here.
 
Perhaps your best option is simply to finish the album and send it off for mastering. Probably most of it's fine, and if there are songs that are problematic or don't fit into the overall concept, a good mastering engineer will communicate with you about that and possibly ask for a different mix or stems. I've done that with several artists and although some of them thought it was kind of a PITA to accommodate me, in the end they were all glad they made the suggested changes and took the extra time.
2014/06/30 00:03:16
konradh
After taking into account the comments and Craig's examples, here is a mix that sounds good to me (although I may tweak the vocal level with fresh ears).  The kick is only up 1 db, but with less of a cut in the 300hz band.  I took out some of the high-mid boost on the bass.
 
Hopefully this is pretty close but with the disclaimer about the vocal level.  I'm still open to comments.
 
https://soundcloud.com/bill-hartmann/15-minutes-of-fame-trial-mix-2
 
Interestingly, the peak value at master only changed 0.1 db.
2014/06/30 00:15:56
Anderton
I think it sounds good. I like the vocals where they are. Vocals used to be mixed a lot louder and drums were down lower; that's changed over the years. As a matter of personal preference, I like vocals up...not as loud as they were in the 50s, though. Vocals create an emotional connection better than sampled strings ever will.  Give her the 15 minutes of fame! Let the vocals ring out to the back rows in the KonradH playhouse!
 
And finally, remember this: You can have 26 different mixes of a song that all are valid. The one that's most valid is the one that causes the greatest emotional impact on the listener, not the one with the greatest technical achievement. I think the coolest thing in "Ray of Light" was when Madonna went for a note and missed it. She had the good sense not to mix it out but instead let it add a supremely human element that in a fraction of a second, provided the perfect counterbalance to all those synths and technology.
 
All that matters is the emotional impact on the listener, and the vocal will be the prime carrier of that impact...not the balance between the kick and the bass. I'm not saying the rhythm section isn't important by any means, but if it's a little off while the vocals are spot-on...win.
2014/06/30 00:39:15
konradh
Craig, Due to some weirdness in how the forum refreshed for me, I did not see your comments about the EQ of the first mix until after I posted the second one--but I am taking all your advice to heart and greatly appreciate it. For better or worse, I am not your typical country or rock guy. :-) You are awesome and are really helping.
2014/06/30 00:46:58
Anderton
Well the only really good advice I've given you is that mixing decisions follow from production decisions. 
2014/06/30 10:51:43
dcumpian
I've used side-chain compression to subtly drop the bass when the kick hits, and it works great. However, I've since been using Wavefactory's Trackspacer. It basically works like a side-chain compressor but does it's magic using automated EQ curves. I have found that it is much more musical and doesn't require as much finagling as with a compressor to get a nice solid impact for the kick and the bass.
 
Regards,
Dan
 
2014/06/30 13:34:47
brconflict
A few tricks I learned are as follows:
 
1) To add a slight bit of kick punch to a mix without really changing the sound, try boosting the EQ with a really tight Q at about 60-80HzHz. Not boosted too much, but maybe 2-4 db.
 
2) Feed the kick drum into the side-channel of a compressor you're using for the bass track/buss. With a 25ms release time, you can let the kick pump through the bass a good bit without the audible pumping of post-compression. Your ears have a natural compression release, where, when a loud kick hits, your ears should recover in about the same amount of time without detecting the drop in bass guitar or MIDI bass. 
 
3) Waves Trans-X Wide. This is a very useful tool, but I recommend using it on a copy of your kick drum track. On kick, I may also add Waves MaxxBass with some tweaking. It does ok. I don't recommend it for bass, though. For bass, I recommend the tape saturation or tube plug-in in the Pro-Channel to bring it out a bit without adding super-low-end. Subdue anything below 30-40Hz on bass, then boost tape or tube saturation. Light use of a limiter is fun, too, on bass. 
 
4) Create a buss, called "Kick-punch". Add the Cakewalk TS-64 Transient Shaper to it. Set the output of that buss go to the Drums buss. Now, create a Send from the kick track(s) to this Kick-punch buss, and tweak the TS64 until you get the loudest, most ear-splitting punch from the kick. It takes some playing with. It doesn't have to sound good, you're only after the attack punch. You will adjust the amount to the real kick drum by adjusting the Send or the Kick-punch fader. This will mix the TS64 with the rest of the kit, blending it in with the actual kick sound. I use this trick on snare with excellent pop!
 
5) Search your project and get rid of ANY ruble or kick bleed into any other drum mics, if it's really bassy. Sometimes, low-end rumble will eat up valuable space in the low-end when mixing/mastering. 
 
2014/06/30 14:49:13
wizard71
dcumpian
I've used side-chain compression to subtly drop the bass when the kick hits, and it works great. However, I've since been using Wavefactory's Trackspacer. It basically works like a side-chain compressor but does it's magic using automated EQ curves. I have found that it is much more musical and doesn't require as much finagling as with a compressor to get a nice solid impact for the kick and the bass.
 
Regards,
Dan
 


This plug is brilliant. +1000
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