• SONAR
  • Optimum levels for recording meters in Sonar
2014/07/05 16:58:24
RexRed
I have a number of questions here so I hope to draw in some users and cakewalk tech support people to answer them. 
 
First off I have the latest Sonar X3 Producer edition (upgrade) and the Roland quad capture 2x2 audio interface.
 
This is how I record. Please tell me if I am doing something wrong.
 
I first insert drum and usually some synth chord progression. Then I push the "auto sens" button on my Roland audio interface and sing or play as loud as I think my voice or guitar will need during the recording. It sets the gain with the auto sensor. This part I have no problem with. The problems starts after I record. I will notice that the sensor will set itself but often my record levels are low once they are wave files. Sometime too small to even see without expanding the track view. I prefer not using a compressor in the record process. I usually record at 44khz 24bit.
 
First question
What should the peak meters read in Cakewalk while recording and how do I gain them so I end up with healthy waves?
 
Second question
In the compressor section I will set the meters so they only flash green so no orange or red is shown in the various in/out meters in the pro channel? Is this right?
 
Once my signal comes out of the pro channel it is usually left with little track headroom to boost gains. 
 
Third question
This is the worst one: Once I get my mix done I usually find my mix levels in the master bus are so low I end up cranking the amp in my mastering software. Should I normalize my tracks or crank it up at this stage?
 
I usually don't normalize my tracks because I prefer to re-sample my tracks as little as possible. They are already resampled once with V-vocal (I don't care for melodyne that much sorry.)
 
I end up using the cut and add audio gain to louder and softer passages so in the end i am doing a bit of re sampling.
 
Isn't using a preamp to bring my tracks out of the dirt adding a bit of noise? What is better using a preamp on the master or normalizing the waves? 
 
Fourth question. This is almost embarrassing to ask because I have been using cakewalk since cakewalk for dos.
In my mix, at what DB should the main vocal roughly be peaking at.
 
I have heard it said the bass kick drum needs to peak at around minus three DB but usually it is just too loud for my mixes. So that does not seem to work. 
 
Most of my songs have a bass drum, a bass and (lots of) vocals, acoustic guitar parts, pads and solo fill instruments etc.
Decibel wise what instrument should I set to a certain DB level and then fill the rest of the instruments around? This is so when i master and compress the mix I have healthy gains/headroom etc. I am sorry if my questions are simplistic I just usually do what sounds right and get by that way which has led to some really disastrous mixes.
 
Fifth question.
Since a have a ton of recordings with really low db level audio tracks (all over the map) would you suggest me normalizing all of the tracks first? If so, what DB level should I normalize them to? If not should I just use some type of gain? There is also the post and pre issues that are totally confusing. There does not seem to be a stand alone plugin for just gain and often my track gain levels get maxed.
 
Related to this gain thing I have noticed a lot of technicians use the equalizer before the compressor in prochannel. Because most equalizers do not have a makeup gain this seems pointless because the signal does not come into the compressor at unity gain then...
 
It seems logical to take the unwanted frequencies (or add) to a signal before compressing but it seems to never work right. How do you work around this problem using the prochannel EQ?
 
Because I end up with needing a preamp between the EQ and compressor I don't usually place the EQ prior to the compressor.
 
Check out rexredmusicartist on revebnation, sorry for the plug :)
 
 
Thanks in advance for any help here, much appreciated. 
2014/07/05 17:20:43
jimkleban
Just an old rule of thumb from my analog days is that you want to record as hot as you can but not distort.... a little above the limit on tape and you got some warm compression, a little above the limit in digital and you get crap.
 
Jim
2014/07/05 17:47:44
John
If you are recording at 24 bits you do not need to record as hot as you can. Many find -12 dB to be a good target peak. The one thing you must not do is let any audio clip. With Sonar you cannot control the gain of the recording. It must be done from the hardware. You set the level with your sound card and what is feeding it.  Sonar does not have anything to do with setting level for recording. Adjusting gain in Sonar or with the track fader will give you false readings. So be sure everything is at unity gain within Sonar. 
2014/07/05 17:53:02
TomHelvey
I always try to stay between -6 and -9 dbfs. You can always make it up later but you can't fix it if you overload the inputs when recording the track.
2014/07/05 18:13:25
Jeff Evans
jkleban
Just an old rule of thumb from my analog days is that you want to record as hot as you can but not distort.... a little above the limit on tape and you got some warm compression, a little above the limit in digital and you get crap.
 
Jim



Totally wrong.  John is correct.  With 24 bit recording you can afford to choose a reference level like -20 dB FS and set your rms levels way down there.  There is NOTHING to be gained by recording hot other than the possibility of clipping.
 
What you should do though is adopt the K system and install some proper VU meters.  It makes setting levels very easy and you cannot go wrong and you won't bring a clip light on anywhere either.  Setting peaks to a certain level is not great.  You should be setting your rms levels to be constant (on tracks and buses) not your peak levels.  The built in headroom of the K system will take care of peaks.
 
Putting Sonar meters into rms mode wont help either.  Sonar reports rms levels as being 3 dB down on correct rms levels and rms levels show up way too low on the display.  A VU meter will show 0 dB on the meter when the rms levels are at the calibrated reference. (eg down at -14 or -20 etc)
 
But that is whole other story.  One which I have told many times but many don't seem to get it or want to get it.
 
If you are really keen go to this link. There is a decent explaination of it there:
 
http://forumsarchive.presonus.com/posts/list/42222.page
 
Sorry it is the Presonus forum but I am sure you will cope. I have explained this all too on this forum but it has been a while and you may have to search for it but it is well explained here too. Presonus has a new forum but this is the old forum.
2014/07/05 18:21:39
RexRed
I very rarely distort while recording and I am not sure how but when I do overload using 24 bits sometimes it is okay.
 
 Thanks for the answer about not being able to correct gains while recording John. I will not even try then I will just get what i get and go from there. Tried track levels and they did not seem to works 
 
Now about the other answers, normalize to what level for low level recordings or use a real-time preamp? What levels should tracks be roughly and what color do the pro channel peak indicators distort? If I do normalize a track or section of a track what DB should I normalize to? I have noticed that V-vocal distorts tracks that are too hot. And why are my mixes so low in the master? Why do I have to boost so much in the master compression?
 
BTW I am a huge fan of cakewalk! :)
 
I have tried using the pro channel bus compressor to raise up my mixes. I shut off the bus compression and lose half of my gain. I think a good rule is to not apply bus compression until the mix levels are set. But I have heard some youtube videos say always turn on bus compression while making a song. Seems like recording in the dark that way. I use bus compression and lose sight of my track headroom while making a song then I am stuck with a mess..
 
I am working on a 17 minute song song with 16 vocal tracks and tons of takes. I have to figure out a system for getting my vocal DB volumes in the right range. Some high vocals are tiny waves and low bassy vocal are large. 
 
I can't apply the same normalizing to them, or maybe if I normalize in some mid point, and at 24 bit how many times can I resample till I lose fidelity? I am ending up with a volume envelope tangled mess. 
 
I need a large army of editors :) hehe
2014/07/05 18:36:24
RexRed
Checking out your link now Jeff thanks for the info. I am not exactly sure what you mean Jeff about the VU meters I will study your post thoroughly thanks.
 
I am not really having trouble obtaining the a nice recording it is just that the waves are all different sizes depending on how a vocal is sung. If i have a loud section in the vocal then I lower my recording gains than the small quiet parts/tracks have tiny waves. 
I can't seem to find a DB standard or middle point for mixing these various levels of recordings. 
 
It seems if i were to normalize sections of recorded materials to a middle of the road volume level it would save me a lot of headaches later on.
2014/07/05 18:36:36
John
I'm not sure you understand what I was saying. Sonar can't know what the level is before it gets to the AD converter. This is where it could clip. Digital clipping is what you must avoid. Adjusting the level in Sonar while recording will do nothing. It has no effect. The record meters show the level of the streamed audio from disk and have no impact on its level. However if you do adjust a fader it will look as if it is doing something but in reality nothing is done to the actual audio. And now you have an uncalibrated meter. 
 
Once you have recorded your audio and are ready to mix just adjust faders on each track to suite your needs. Use the gain control as well if needed. One thing to keep in mind is if you have FX on a track avoid pushing it hard with a high level signal. 
2014/07/05 18:41:04
RexRed
Thanks for clarifying that for me that is a drawback and i noticed that the track levels looked like they worked but did not a while ago I did not really put it into a complete thought like you have, thanks.
2014/07/05 18:49:45
Jeff Evans
Yes I am sorry it is so long winded. Actually if you check out the very last post on this I did do a short summary.
 
You wont be able to use the K system with this existing project of yours that easily either. You have to adopt it right from the start.
 
Recording with VU rms metering produces all the waves of the same height and loudness too.  You don't have to add or subtract gain anywhere  (later in mixing that is)  because everything is already tracked correctly.
 
What John is saying about adjusting incoming levels is also correct too.  But with the VU meter it is just a simple matter of while the talent is doing their thing you simply adjust the signal coming into your DAW so the VU just hits 0 dB.  Pretty easy and simple.  For drums and percussion it is a little different and you need to rely on your peak metering much more.  I am not saying to ditch peak metering either.  We still need it.  But you can use both.  Two forms of metering are better than one.
 
Most incoming signals will respond to a VU meter very well. Vocals especially.
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