• SONAR
  • Optimum levels for recording meters in Sonar (p.2)
2014/07/05 19:29:19
RexRed
Jeff I think that is one of the most amazing music related things I have ever seen in your introduction on the K metering system. It is completely over my head but I now plan to learn it and use it if it is within my budget. 
 
I don 't have any of these meters I don't think. I record in mono fro most all things so i would think one meter would suffice (not sure). I suppose some pink noise etc. playing from my PC  would suffice for calibrating the meters. It seems complicate but I imagine if it was all set up and calibrated it would be fairly cut and dry and easy to use. I think I vaguely understand the concept. I think in essence you are saying that transients are a more constant way of measuring sound than relative DB. (not sure if i worded that right)
 
I have always dreaded learning about VU meters and DB but it is time to take the plunge. ESPECIALLY if i can achieve near perfect input tracks. I am very confused between RMS and VU. Need to study the other links too. I hope it is not outside of my (poor struggling artist) budget. I want to learn this. 
 
I clicked on the paypal link and it said 8 dollars. What is the total I will need to spend on this awesome project?
2014/07/05 19:36:15
RexRed
I just realized it is a software plugin. I think... :)
 
Somewhere in one of my cakewalk virtual instruments I have a pink and white noise generator.
 
2014/07/05 19:42:59
scook
The MeldaProduction MFreeEffectsBundle includes a handy noise generator
2014/07/05 20:04:23
Jeff Evans
When setting up and calibrating VU meters etc you really need test tones from an outside source that are known to be accurate.  (especially noise tones)  You can setup sinewave tones though  (from an internal test tone generator)  and once the VU meter is installed you can set its ref level and then adjust the generator to set the VU meter accordingly.
 
But it still better to import a known accurate test signal and put it on a track. It avoids any possible errors.  Stereo test signals are also better as they avoid any errors due to panning laws.
 
Noise is a little different. Pink noise tends to read a little lower on the VU meter eg -1 dB or so. Bob Katz has accurate noise test tones on his website.
 
In the past I have uploaded all the test tones onto my Soundcloud and made them available for download. I can do that again of you are keen.
 
The Klanghelm VU meter is not expensive and you get mono and stereo versions.
2014/07/05 20:13:18
jimkleban
Jeff,
 
I appreciate being told I am totally wrong but I think we are saying the same thing.. I was just making a point that you don't want to be too hot coming in with DIGITAL for the nasty clipping (CRAP).... and you don't want to be too low either (distortion with low dynamics)... I think your point of the exact gain is a much more elegant way of saying what I meant to say.
 
Sorry about that but I was trying to keep it simple.
 
Jim
 
2014/07/05 20:18:25
RexRed
I have another question does V-vocal and Melodyne resample a wave file or does it copy it from your project audio folder and analyze it? So does it resample it to load it into itself and resample it if you bounce it to track after editing within? 2 resamples or one? How much signal degredation occurs each time it is bounced? 
 
2014/07/05 20:24:14
Jeff Evans
Jim I agree with what you are saying re 16 bit recording. But with 24 bit recording the theoretical level for noise and distortion and problems is way down at -144 dB FS (-138 dB real world) So even right down at -20 dB FS we have still got 118 dB of dynamic range to play with. That is why 24 bit recording is so good.
 
I just want people to let go of the myth of recording everything so hot. It is the reason many get into so much trouble later on.
2014/07/05 20:27:32
RexRed
Jeff I am still studying the links, I have 16 bit pink noise on my Yamaha TG500 tone generator, I think. Haven't set that up in a while. But I would prefer the links if you can sound cloud them but I may need to wait a couple weeks before I can order the meters. That should give you time to do them at your leisure. They are a definite buy for me though. I will in the meantime study up on this but I am also releasing a new album via googleplay in no more than a week is the deadline I have set for myself, so I will cram in studying up on the meters in my recording mixing down time. As this query was also in my down time. Got to keep learning! :)    
 
2014/07/05 21:13:48
RexRed
i Just found a definitive answer to one of my clipping issues. 
 
The Sonar help file says
 
Clipping LED. Shows if the input signal to the module is clipping. If there is any distortion in the ProChannel signal chain, the clipping LEDs let you identify where the clipping occurs.
 
Comment:
 
I think I have figured out why my master output is so quiet
 
LED lights in the pro channel have four colors they cycle through
 
1 green
2 yellow
3 orange
4 red
 
Red is the only one that is clipping
The other colors just mean they are nearing clipping
 
This is why my masters are so quiet.
I have been keeping them strictly in the green 
 
Every time I would look for the help file I would be taken to this forum with a jumble of words. (No offence peeps)
 
In finding this about the LED and the previous discussions here it gave me an idea to look at the output levels on the track channel meter.
 
I know this sounds stupid that i have not done this before but... I am learning, beside writing, recording and publishing and having nearly 100 thousand followers online that I invited one by one I have to learn the nitty gritty of this stuff.  Somethings my mind does not like to learn and meters and thinking in DB is one of them.
 
Now I know why I could not get the console emulator to respond much.
 
I thought yellow was clipping and my track volume was useless at that point.
 
I set out to figure out why this level thing was not working today and gosh darned i did.
 
I might add that the Sonar help file could go into levels and metering a bit more. What seems obvious to the person writing the manual is not obvious to someone who has been using cakewalk since cakewalk for dos.
 
Thanks for letting me think out loud and bounce my ideas till I figured out what was wrong. :)
 
You have been a good help. My dilemma was probably too simple to figure out or articulate. Once i figured it out it seems quite obvious in hindsight. Green is not the DB peak ceiling, orange is.
 
I have clocked many many thousands of hours in  Sonar and finally I will be getting some hot mixes.
 
Please detail the help files in sonar concerning the LED light threshold for those as dumb as me and cannot figure it out. 
 
and Jeff I will be buying the meters soon so please stay tuned to this thread and I will be back to comment and make inquires if you don't mind.
 
THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH!
RexRed
 
2014/07/05 21:29:34
Cactus Music
I dunno, I kinda use my interfaces meter and Sonar seems to insert new audio tracks with all the way it should be at unity so ,, Insert audio track, set input to interface, burp into mike or slam on guitar, bass until peak level is red and back off a bit,,, I only look at Sonars meters to see if it's working. If I see that little red dot ( peak hold) then I know I screwed up and back off even a little more and re do the take. 
I don't care it you can record lower with 24 bit, I still like my tracks in the upper end of things, otherwise your stuck with raising the gain. But now I can tool copy into Wave Lab I can fix that. 
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