• SONAR
  • Pro Channel authenticity (p.5)
2014/06/12 13:01:13
John T
Well, this is riveting stuff.
2014/06/12 13:06:52
John T
Jim Roseberry
LA2A
I mean, is this following statement from Slate Digital not self explanatory... "We meticulously modelled the ENTIRE CIRCUIT PATH so that we could RECREATE EVERY SUBTLE NUANCE that makes these consoles the legends that they are, says Slate."



Slate makes some great things...
But... "subtle" isn't exactly his style. 
Watch the Raven demo videos for a dose of the "dramatic".  
You're accepting marketing verbiage as 100% truth (from Slate).
 



Well, he's... enthusiastic, shall we say. I quite like the guy though, and I don't think I've ever seen him claim anything that was actually false. Sure, he does a bit of showbiz in how he sells his stuff. But there's nothing wrong with that. Slate make good stuff, and he talks about it like it's good stuff. Fair enough.
 
Their methodology is as he describes, which is component-level modelling. So they're not simply replicating the results of a bit of gear, they're emulating the individual parts of that gear and putting those emulations together. Which is all very clever. How much difference it really makes is up for debate, mind you.
 
 
2014/06/12 13:14:58
LA2A
Until you hear the end-result of their emulations side by side with the actual mixing desks, then there is no debate. Fabrice Gabriel, who is Stephen Slate's lead programmer was previously one of the head programmers for Arturia, so i think we can safely say he was qualified for the task.
2014/06/12 13:30:19
John T
Nobody's said he isn't.
2014/06/12 13:46:21
Beepster

2014/06/12 14:48:47
Splat
I am beginning to believe more and more he works in marketing or extremely naieve. Sadly LA is really showing his lack of experience in such matters. I suspect he has never touched a console in his life. Sound engineering is NOT a game of top trumps, nor is marketing (which is mainly based on lies or exaggerated truths). The more he posts the more I'm not interested in the products he is peddling which may or may not be genuinely quite good. He does not realise the end product and good workflow is what matters not your tools. Anything can be accomplished in just about any software or hardware if you put your mind to it.

Bored now...
2014/06/12 15:36:06
Jim Roseberry
John T
Well, he's... enthusiastic, shall we say. I quite like the guy though, and I don't think I've ever seen him claim anything that was actually false. Sure, he does a bit of showbiz in how he sells his stuff. But there's nothing wrong with that. Slate make good stuff, and he talks about it like it's good stuff. Fair enough.
 
Their methodology is as he describes, which is component-level modelling. So they're not simply replicating the results of a bit of gear, they're emulating the individual parts of that gear and putting those emulations together. Which is all very clever. How much difference it really makes is up for debate, mind you.



Slate's ad style doesn't bother me...  (was trying to make the point below) 
 
@LA2A:
What marketing department would say, "Oh, you know... we kinda half-@$$ modeled the components/unit.  It's somewhere in the ballpark... but not really accurate."   
 
Of course, when Slate (or anyone else) is selling separate console emulation plugins, they're going to tout that they modeled each one to a T.  Any company would...  
I'm sure they've done their very best to model said hardware.
That said, if you have a real Neve desk in front of you, using a plugin (any plugin) will offer *some* of the personality... but it won't be 100% the exact same experience/sound.  And yes, I've mixed on a Neve console.
 
To use Arturia programming as an example:
Their MiniMoog V is a pretty decent emulation of a Mini-Moog.
But... If you have a real Mini-Moog (which I've had) and play it side-by-side, the real Mini-Moog absolutely *destroys* the plugin.  No comparison.  The real Mini sounds fatter/thicker, the filter sounds far better, and for lack of a better description, you can "hear the electricity".
I've yet to hear *any* Mini-Moog emulation that sounds as good as the original... so this isn't to single out Arturia.
Does that mean all Mini-Moog emulations are unusable?  Not at all...
I've heard some really cool stuff done with Mini-Moog V and MiniMonsta.
But 100% accurate???  No...
There are downsides to a real Mini-Moog (temperamental, needs service due to age, tuning stability).
When everything is weighed into the equation (sound, convenience, cost, space, etc), the plugins are suddenly a lot more attractive.
 
After the better part of 30 years using samples/models of various instruments and hardware, I'm pretty confident in the statement that, "An emulation/model will *never* offer the same exact experience as the original."
If you need 100% faithful, nothing beats the original.
 
This applies to drumkit, guitars, bass, piano, mics, keyboards, outboard processors, etc.
If you love the sound of a '59 humbucker in the bridge position of a LesPaul:
You can find less-expensive options that sound similar... but if you want that exact sound, there's only one way to get it.
 
2014/06/12 15:41:57
Jim Roseberry
And yes, I do love the sound of a '59 humbucker in the bridge of a LesPaul.
More "hair" than the BurstBucker Pro
But alas, the BurstBucker Pro has more "detail/air"
I like them both...  
 
Sorry for derailing the thread.
I'm good at that sometimes...
2014/06/12 15:55:49
Sanderxpander
I'll approach it from a different angle; I think the ProChannel models the consoles about as accurately as it is useful to do so. I haven't A/Bd with actual consoles, and I don't think it's really all that useful to do so, as ultimately, it's about getting the right sound character and using your ears to make a good mix. Your song won't sound better just by flipping on a bunch of console emulator plugs, whether they're from Slate or anyone else.
2014/06/12 16:05:35
Anderton
LA2A
Ummm, Mr Anderton, i notice you have 'hyper-focused' on nearly every word of every context of every point in my posts, and then in reply interpreted my posts to mean only what you wanted them to mean quite apart from what they actually meant

 
I can only go by your words. If they do not accurately convey what you mean, there's not much I can do about that.
 
i just want to know what your point is and i want it spelt-out clearly, are you up for that? Put your cards face-up on the table mate! Like me! Just keep it simple

 
I have explained my point in great detail. I will summarize at the end, and I will try to make it as simple as humanly possible.
 
you have plainly said words to the effect that the pro channel is not an accurate emulation of the hardware and that no emulation ever will be; chime in anyone, and tell me if i misread Mr Anderton's verbose replies.

 
You have combined two unrelated topics.
 
Topic 1: I NEVER said the Pro Channel is not an accurate emulation of the hardware. I said: "I'm not going to have a frickin' console shipped here just to see if Cakewalk came within 80% or 95% or 97.32456% of 'a real thing.'" In other words, I don't know. However...
 
Topic 2: No emulation will ever be 100% accurate because there are too many variables. If Cakewalk, Waves, Slate, or anyone comes with 95%, AFAIC that's excellent. But I'll never know, because I won't have the consoles here to do a comparison.
 
The reason why my replies are verbose is because you say so much that is wrong and/or needs correction. If you weren't disingenuous, my replies would be very short. So, let's keep it simple.
 
Pop Quiz #1: Everyone here who has compared the consoles emulated with the ProChannel with the emulations, raise your hand.
 
No one?
 
Okay. Then it's no wonder everyone here is honest enough not to make claims about the accuracy of the emulation.
 
Pop Quiz #2: Everyone here who has compared the consoles emulated with Slate's VCC with the emulations, raise your hand.
 
No one?
 
Interesting. You claim that Slate emulates every nuance of the consoles perfectly, but I didn't see you raise your hand. And I can tell you right now that VCC does not emulate "every nuance" of the consoles perfectly, because it doesn't include any of the processors in the channel strip, like EQ or dynamics.
 
I would be the last person to diss Steven Slate's work. I see him at trade shows, I like him as a person, I identified him years ago as a rising star in the industry, and I've given him a lot of coverage when I was doing magazines and Harmony Central. I would not say anything negative about Steven or his products, because I think he's committed to advancing the state of the art. (If he put out a crap product I would say something negative, but that hasn't happened.) I would expect him to be proud of his work, and present it in the most favorable terms.
 
So try this out: As the designer of the Quadrafuzz, I will tell you that upon its introduction it was the most sophisticated distortion product ever created for the electric guitar, using technology based on distortion elements with junction capacitance that I have discussed with someone of no less stature than Tom Scholz. Its use of multiband frequency separation made it the undisputed innovator in distortion devices when introduced, and its design has since been adopted in Steinberg's Quadrafuzz emulation, iZotope's Trash, and various other products.
 
Many, if not most, people would agree with that. So, go to all the forums from manufacturers that make distortion devices, present that as the truth, question the truthfulness of any claims they make about their products but not the claims I've made, and see what response you get. You'll probably be ridiculed, banned, and have your thread deleted.
 
Your first post here IIRC was to link to KVR's DAW survey with your conclusion that Reaper, Studio One, and Cubase "take the Cake." Then you come in here and hype a product, diss Cakewalk's equivalent product, and misrepresent what the community said after sincerely trying to help you.
 
I've been moderating internet forums for musicians since 1995, and you have all the earmarks of a troll - especially the low post count, and starting topics designed to present the host in an unfavorable light. However, over the course of your subsequent posts, I will admit my initial assessment may have been wrong, and you may simply be a naive purveyor of drama, which I find less objectionable.
 
You know perfectly well that nearly every post in reply to me in this thread basically stated that the pro channel is not an accurate emulation

 
Please refer back to Pop Quiz #1.
 
I drew a clear common sense conclusion

 
People not claiming something is accurate is not the same as claiming something is inaccurate. For example I like VCC but I would NEVER claim the emulations are accurate because I have not tested them myself against the consoles. From that, according to your "logic," I am saying the VCC is not an accurate emulation. With all due respect, if that's what you consider a common sense conclusion, you really, really need to take a course in logic (with a particular emphasis on avoiding logical fallacies).
 
Have you made-up your mind yet? Is the pro channel accurate or not? Just tell me in plain words right here, i'd like to hear your plain and simple answer!

 
You mean, you'd like to hear it again: "I'm not going to have a frickin' console shipped here just to see if Cakewalk came within 80% or 95% or 97.32456% of 'a real thing.'" Since that apparently wasn't simple enough for you, here's a plain and simple answer I hope you can understand:
 
I can't make any conclusive statement regarding the accuracy of any emulation unless I have the physical device being emulated, the emulation, and a bunch of test equipment.
 
I can confidently say that the VCC collection is indistinguishable form the real-life counter parts, and no more different than the differences between the actual real-life analog units of the same mixing desk; i'll happily be on record as saying there is very little if any discernable difference between the VCC collection and the real-life componentry they emulate, so Slate Digital has indeed succeeded in producing an 'accurate' emulation, only God himself could do better, and that's saying something!

 
You never described the tests you did to come to that conclusion. Until you do, you are not worth my time.
 
Tell us Mr Anderton what you said in your review of the Slate Digital emulations, would you care to do that?

 
It's a matter of public record. I write for magazines. Read the articles. Or read the Sound on Sound review, my conclusions were pretty much the same.
 
Any while i'm here, what part of "Recreate EVERY SUBTLE NUANCE" DIDN'T YOU UNDERSTAND? Opps, i forgot, those were the 'lies' of the marketing department.

 
Show me ONE place where I referred to the marketing department as saying "lies." Just one. If you can't, I expect an apology. For the record, I said: "Comparing nuanced statements from users to absolute statements by a marketing department is probably not the best way to determine the reality of a situation."
 
Don't play word games with me Mr Anderton! You've managed to misconstrue an entirely innocent post into something more akin to a subversive conspiracy on my part. Where the hell did that come from?

 
From your inability to answer my questions, your mischaracterization of the community's opinion, your lack of any contribution of merit, your being too lazy to do any research prior to dissing Cakewalk, and your overall level of dishonesty. Since you don't like verbosity, we can leave it at that.
 
Here's your homework assignment if you expect me to spend any more time on you:
 
1. Describe the tests you conducted to determine that "I can confidently say that the VCC collection is indistinguishable form the real-life counter parts, and no more different than the differences between the actual real-life analog units of the same mixing desk; i'll happily be on record as saying there is very little if any discernable difference between the VCC collection and the real-life componentry they emulate, so Slate Digital has indeed succeeded in producing an 'accurate' emulation, only God himself could do better, and that's saying something!"
 
2. Show me where I characterized any statements made by Slate (even though I was giving more general advice and did not mention the company specifically) as lies.
 
Until then, you have no credibility. And I were with Slate, I'd be embarrassed to have you making claims for the brand. They're a quality brand; they deserve quality posts.
 
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