• SONAR
  • Entering Lyrics causes unwanted notes to appear (p.2)
2014/03/14 06:59:52
Hubie J
Hiya tbaroni
I add lyrics to all my songs to play/sing on my tyros 5 keyboard, had a few problems with X2 upgrade and have now gone back to X1 as it works just fine, I mostly use Midi files only.
I shall wait to see it it gets fixed in X3? before I upgrade.
2014/05/09 15:21:44
tbaroni
Since I gave up in frustration months ago with this problem, and tried to do what I want to do with software other than Sonar, I've been out of the loop here.  But today I looked in my "junk email" folder.  There was a message from the cakewalk folks sitting there since 2/19/2014!
 
Bottom line:

Report Correspondence


2/19/2014 - 10:45 AM From: Jon Sasor [Cakewalk]Hello Tony,
We are unable to reproduce your issue as described on our end. The additional rests that are appearing in your project file appear related to the note duration in some of the measures rather than being related to the lyrics being added. If you are still experiencing actual notes being created from your lyrics and would like to troubleshoot this further, please contact Technical Support again.
Best Regards,
Cakewalk Problem Reporter
----------------------------------
 
So shame on me for not noticing this earlier - I guess I need to check my "junk email' more frequently.  And shame on them for saying they cannot reproduce the issue, because the original guy I spoke to told me that he DID reproduce the problem and he'd have to get back to me!
 
I'm more than a little disgusted.  Now debating if I should bother trying to call them again.  I suppose they'll tell me I need to upgrade.  I try to do what I do mostly - create midi music and print scores - with MuseScore, which is free and I've never had occasion to need support!
 
Anyway, I felt I owed the forum a follow up.  Wish it included a solution!
 
2014/05/11 12:55:45
Splat
I tried to repro with X3E but could not at my end, that probably doesn't mean it isn't an issue though as we might not have the right steps, maybe Cake had the same problem. Perhaps if you could give us exact steps from a new project, like this it may move things along...
 
(Oh hang on I already wrote this sorry, but the point is still there)....
 
Cheers...
2014/05/16 15:39:52
tbaroni
OK, here's what I do:
1.  Open a new project and add a midi track.
2.  I set preferences to 120 ticks / quarter note. 
3.  Enter notes.  Sometimes I play them in thru my midi keyboard, sometimes I enter them painstakingly note by note on the staff view, sometimes I enter them into MuseScore and save a midi file with the notes, then open the saved midi file.
4.  I open the Lyrics view window for the track and either (a) type in some lyrics word by word, or (b) copy some lyrics from a notepad file and paste into the lyrics view.
5.  Go back to look at the staff view and see if it became all messed up.
6.  Repeat steps 4 & 5 until I reach the end successfully or find things screwed up.
 
I've tried entering thru the lyrics view and encountered the same problem. 
 
Last project prior to step 4, I opened the piano roll view and checked for and corrected any overlapping notes before entering lyrics.  Then copied the track to a new track and added the lyrics to the new track; this gives me the ability to recover the music after it gets messed up.
 
If I knew how to, I'd attach a '.cwp or '.mid file to this post.
 
Some things I've noticed: 
   When typing into the lyrics view Sonar seems to want to remove spaces between words particularly if I pause a moment after typing a space and starting the subsequent word.  Sonar is apparently doing some processing and adjusting while I type.
   The longer the project the more likely the problem will occur. 
   If a song is of, say, AABA form I will of course copy and paste the notes of the later A verses - when the project gets messed up it seems that another copy of A is inserted seemingly randomly over a portion of the song. 
   I can usually correct the problem by tediously deleting the unwanted notes, but one little change later and the problem reoccurs.
 
2014/05/16 19:57:27
slartabartfast
CakeAlexS
I tried to repro with X3E but could not at my end, that probably doesn't mean it isn't an issue though as we might not have the right steps, maybe Cake had the same problem. Perhaps if you could give us exact steps from a new project, like this it may move things along...
 

 
Interesting.
 
So does this mean that if everyone using Sonar and following the exact steps to reproduce an issue is unable to reproduce the issue, then the issue is not a Sonar issue? If so, then every legitimate Sonar problem should be found on alpha testing.
 
Seems to me there are dozens of problems reported on the forum that only a subset of users are able to reproduce. Presumably this is because not everyone is using the same hardware or has the same installed software or operating system. Nonetheless, for some of these problems, code changes in Sonar updates seem to have been curative. If a universally reproducible issue exists, it clearly is a Sonar issue/bug. But if a commonly encountered incompatibility with other commonly used audio software or hardware exists, it probably should be addressed. 
 
2014/05/18 17:04:09
tbaroni
I had come to the conclusion that few people actually do what I do: use midi tracks and add lyrics to them.  I had read a post on one of these forums a year or two ago by someone basically insulting those of us throwbacks who still use midi!  Cakewalk no longer supports CAL, that's indicative of less interest in us midi users.  All the latest and greatest improvements seem to be aimed toward the audio capabilities.
 
And if say 1,000 users have encountered the problem, how many would actually report it in this forum?  How many would submit a problem report?  How many go use some other software?  (Like I did.)  I had the problem quite a while before I brought it up here.  I figured, "Obviously, I'm doing something really stupid.  Nobody has mentioned this on the forum.  It must be some dopy thing I'm doing.  I'd better check the help first."   And I'd fuss with it for a night or just try to delete all the strange unwanted notes.
 
I would be surprised if everyone who followed the  exact steps I outlined encountered the problem, otherwise even if a low percentage of us are using midi, you'd think the problem would have come up previously.   I wouldn't be surprised if it is related to some quirky thing I'm doing.  For instance, I mentioned in the steps I outlined that I set my clock preferences to 120 ticks per beat.  Probably not important, but I don't know.  At least I now know that I am not the only one experiencing this problem.
 
I submitted another problem report yesterday.  I'll post an answer if I get one.
 
2014/05/19 10:58:29
Tom Riggs
I use Midi on all my projects. I also sometimes write the vocal melody on a midi track and add lyrics. Then display this while singing the vocals just in case I forget the lyric or the melodic decisions I made when writing. I do not remember having this problem.
 
Edit: I should add that I do not use the lyrics view and only enter the lyrics on the staff view.
 
2014/05/19 19:57:37
tbaroni
Well, Tom, I wish I could say the same.
 
I wish I knew what the heck I'm doing wrong!
2014/05/20 10:51:49
rbowser
tbaroni...You create a project, then start entering lyrics via the Lyrics View.  At some point, usually well into the song, additional lyrics cause unwanted notes to begin to appear throughout your project...


As others have said on this thread, it's surprising this is a virtually unknown topic at the Forum.

I'm here to say that this lyric bug has been in Sonar for a very long time.  There was a time way back early in the Sonar series when lyrics worked fine, then at some point things went wonky, and now, the same bug that's been in Cakewalk for YEARS is still there in X3.

In post #16, tbaroni, you said you have the impression that not many people need to work with lyrics.  I don't think that could be right.  Plenty of songwriters need print outs with lyrics for various situations, but don't need beautiful publisher-ready scores - they just need hand outs for fellow band members, choir members, or even for themselves to read on screen as they dub in a vocal.

In posts #1 and #14 you describe your method of working with lyrics.  The major thing different from how you're working from how I do, is that you're trying to use the Lyrics View for your input.  I don't think that's a good idea.  The Lyric View is for viewing lyrics - It can be used like a telepromter, filling up a monitor screen in a studio for singers to easily see the words.  But you're having to go back to the Staff View to see if things have gone wrong.  That's your self-noted tip:  You should be working in Staff View to begin with so you can catch immediately when the bug pops up.  

When things go as they should, it's fast and easy to input lyrics - but when things go wrong, it's there in Staff View where the bug shows up.

The basic method:  You have a MIDI track with just the melody line.  Click the first note, and when you're set for inputting lyrics, you type one word or syllable and when you use the space bar, the next note is automatically selected.  The text box for typing is right under the note and pointing to it - Very simple and intuitive.

The bug is that as you go along, suddenly Sonar starts inserting new notes instead of going to your next one.  If you've been sailing along, it may take a word or two to notice - but it's totally obvious if you're watching the staff.  When that happens, you can't use undo, as you noted.  You have to select the inserted note, delete it, then select the correct note and type the syllable or word.  Once Sonar has kicked into that bug, you suddenly have to work in s-l-o-w  m-o-t-i-o-n - typing one thing at a time, stopping, selecting the next note, typing - etc You can't sail along with the program automatically stepping through your melody as it should.

Yeah.  For years now.  It's another wonky bit which is just the same old broken programming hiding under the streamlined GUI of the X series.

Randy
2014/05/20 14:08:32
Splat
Well Randy seem to confirm this with X3E, so that's good enough confirmation from the user end.
 
Tony may I suggest you log this with Cakewalk problem reporter, and also post them a link to this post so they can get a context as to what is happening.
 
It would also be nice if you could post the CWBRN reference here and keep us updated with any notifications you might receive.
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