I often want to remove, say, 8 bars from the middle of the song. Selecting Delete and subsequently Delete hole and Shift by whole measures works - except for bus envelopes. (Yes, I have the option Track/Bus Automation selected.)

This is driving me mad! It makes it such a labor to delete song sections while keeping bus automation in place.

Or am I missing something? I'm on S7.

No, you're not missing anything. Bus envelope nodes don't move automatically.

That, I believe, is by design. A bus is a destination for audio and as such knows nothing about your tracks. It would be like turning down the master volume in your project and expecting your power amplifier to adjust itself. There is no connection there for that to happen.

However, it would be a very cool feature if you could chop out chunks of bus automation. Just one of many potential features that could be implemented. I think automation editing is the weakest feature in SONAR.

I was also in trouble last night because of this weird behaviour of Sonar!
In details:

I ve got my 5 minutes long project!I decide that in lets say 2 minutes I wish a 8 barloop to be extended to be 16 bars!I select ALL tracks using the "select elnvelopes when selecting events" tool,I select the 8 bar loop and copy-paste it over the next 8 bars!The pop up window appears ,I select "slide over to make room".Perfect everything is in place:track events,track automation....but hey ,oh ,wait a minute why oh why the bus automation didnt move?????? Of course you can seperately move bus automations but ONLY if you havent already selected any normal tracks to go with them (buses)!

Its really frustrating to have half-implemented features....whats the use of "slide over to make room?" if it doesnt work for the WHOLE of the project including buses?
I believe I have seen already a request (from member Susan was it?) that bus tracks behave like normal tracks do,and I must say I agree 100% on this!!!!!!!


PLEASE MAKE BUSES SELECTABLE (LIKE NORMAL TRACKS) AND MAKE THEM BEHAVE LIKE NORMAL TRACKS

ORIGINAL: bitflipper

No, you're not missing anything. Bus envelope nodes don't move automatically.

That, I believe, is by design. A bus is a destination for audio and as such knows nothing about your tracks. It would be like turning down the master volume in your project and expecting your power amplifier to adjust itself. There is no connection there for that to happen.

Yes, but nodes you place in bus envelopes have a pretty strong (!) connection to the timing in your project, I would say. I.e. "there's a reason why the filter in the master bus drops for 2 bars at 2:05"... I don't think I need to elaborate. :)

ORIGINAL: thegeek
Its really frustrating to have half-implemented features....whats the use of "slide over to make room?" if it doesnt work for the WHOLE of the project including buses?

Exactly! The operation of cutting out few bars in the middle of a song can't be that unusual...

ORIGINAL: cyberzip


Exactly! The operation of cutting out few bars in the middle of a song can't be that unusual...

It's not. Song arrangement is not one of SONAR's strong suites at all IMO. I have taken to making sure I have the entire song structure worked out ahead of time before recording. It works for me but understand how it creates havok with other workflows. I wish buses worked like tracks in this respect as well.

ORIGINAL: AndyW
It's not. Song arrangement is not one of SONAR's strong suites at all IMO.

+1.

I think they'll get there, but they've been very slow to implement tools that would help this. I've been harping since v5 for some kind of section re-ordering or sequencing tools and the closest they've come is clip groups. It's inevitable I think, it's just a matter of keeping up on the feature requests and remaining vocal about it (without being jerks) in the forums.

But at the OP: that sux. being able to move automation around a little more like vector objects (like Adobe Illustrator) would be very helpful and extremely user-friendly. I hate typing into dialogs or having to round everything to the beat and get it all munged up.

Wicked - you're probably right. I'm remaining vocal. :)

It's so tedious to manually move all the bus automation (using the grid, counting measures etc...) when removing a song section. :P

...oh the agony! I just discovered that small details in a project I exported a while ago didn't sound as intended. That's because I had cut out a part in the beginning of the song and the envelopes hadn't moved at all.

Cutting out stuff in projects is really insecure right now. Every envelope needs to be double-checked and/or moved manually.

Hi all, I know this is years late and all, but hopefully someone will find it useful. (Also, I'm doing this in Sonar X3, but I suspect it will work in older versions).
 
The problem is not the "cut special" to delete the hole, the problem is in the "select all". When you "select all", in highlights every track, but not the busses! So, you can many "Ctrl-click" the busses to add them to the tracks, then do the "cut special" and "delete hole" and the automation everywhere will shift correctly, even the busses.
 
Hope this helps,
Mark

Actually, there was a bug in earlier versions that this just didn't work no matter what you did. I don't recall exactly when it got fixed - X1 maybe.