• SONAR
  • Clicks and pops, and audible noise from track faders (x3e) (p.3)
2014/04/21 15:53:01
robert_e_bone
Hang on - I didn't ask you to chuck your video card.
 
All I did was ask you to TEST with the card temporarily pulled from the computer.
 
We're talking about MAYBE 10 minutes work - shutdown, open case, remove card, reboot, test Sonar, shutdown, install card again, close case, reboot.  DONE.
 
You can do as you choose.  I think there is something system-specific with your computer that is causing these issues, and the reality of it all is that it is POSSIBLE that the video card or drivers for it have some sort of conflict.
 
All I asked you to do was to check it out, as noted above - to determine if that is potentially a source for the issues, or to rule it out.  10 minutes.  I think it worth investing that amount of time into trying to solve the issues.
 
Or not  - your choice.
 
Bob Bone
 
 
2014/04/21 17:12:11
Anderton
Spencer
To be truthful I hate nVidia's drivers, their software team is full of completely hopeless dweebs and they always break important stuff (their latest work of art is messing up texture filter clamping), however in this case, if my new card really is the culprit, which would leave me truly dumbfounded, IMHO it's on Cakewalk's end since nothing else in my vast list of audio software is affected by it.

 
I'm not sure what the vast list of software includes, but Sonar ties in with Windows at a very fundamental level...more so than most other programs, which is a major reason why Sonar X3 needs to limit its official support to Windows 7 and 8. While this tight integration promotes better performance with Sonar, it is more dependent on its host machine.
 
I have often experienced graphics card issues that affect one piece of software but not another. One issue affected anything from M-Audio but nothing from Cakewalk. I reviewed a Focusrite interface that was non-functional until I downloaded updated graphics drivers. Intuitively, it would seem that a high-end gaming machine would be ideal for audio because the emphasis is on performance. However, the performance prioritizes incredibly fast frame rates from games rather than passing audio over buses. Gamers don't really care if the audio is delayed by 50ms; Sonar users do. Some high-end graphics cards grab the PCI bus and won't let go.
 
I've always had my computers integrated by companies that specialized in machines for audio. They generally recommend very basic graphic cards. When I swapped out an nVidia for a fanless ATI, it helped performance as well as noise levels. When I had the nVidia card, I always set a system restore point after downloading drivers, and would exercise the drivers thoroughly. I didn't have to restore often, but when I did, I was very glad I set that restore point.
 
It took me quite a while to accept that graphics cards and drivers could have such a major effect on pro audio. It just didn't seem to make sense. But over the years, I've learned that graphics capabilities of Windows computers can make a huge difference with audio-related programs.
2014/04/21 19:01:38
Spencer
Confirmed: the issue happens even with the motherboard's onboard video, with the 770 removed.
 
I also uninstalled X2 and manually removed every trace of any previous Sonar installation I could find, going over the folders, registry, everything. Clean installed X3, faders still make noise. Ugh. This being said, I'm uncertain about my 100% deletion of everything, as the X3 installer still had my serial number in it, and shared component paths. Not sure it would really make a difference though.
 
Checked out demos for Studio One, Reaper, Fl Studio. None of them have the problem, but Jesus H Christ, how anyone manages to make any music in there is beyond me. Nothing left to do but wait for tech support to reply.
 
Like, wtf. How can the faders even possibly make noise, and one single bass track all on its own generate clicks&pops on a powerhouse computer. Something is definitely awry on a fundamental level in the audio engine, and I am the lucky winner who gets to witness it. Can't wrap my head around it at all.
2014/04/21 19:35:04
Anderton
Spencer
Checked out demos for Studio One, Reaper, Fl Studio. None of them have the problem

 
To my point, they're all cross-platform.
 
Like, wtf. How can the faders even possibly make noise, and one single bass track all on its own generate clicks&pops on a powerhouse computer. Something is definitely awry on a fundamental level in the audio engine, and I am the lucky winner who gets to witness it. Can't wrap my head around it at all.


If it was a problem solely with the audio engine, somebody else would be experiencing it. That's not to say there isn't a potential problem in the audio engine that manifests under particular circumstances, but given that it worked before a new graphics card and didn't work properly after a new graphics card, then it seems like the issue is either something in the graphics card drivers or the way the audio engine interacts with those particular drivers.
 
Humor me: try using the most plain vanilla USB mouse you can find and see if that makes a difference. Maybe the new graphics card drivers have special accommodations for high-performance gaming mice? These are known to cause audio performance issues, and not just with Sonar.
2014/04/21 20:33:19
Spencer
Better still: no mouse plugged in at all, the problems persists. Adjusting the faders with my midi controller makes the same noise. By now, with the problem happening with no video card or mouse plugged in, it can be assumed my gaming gear isn't related. Same with the Saffire which performs flawlessly in all other asio software I can throw at it. In any case, this is certainly eye-opening: cross-platform software isn't necessarily worse than windows exclusive.
2014/04/21 21:02:11
Anderton
Spencer
Better still: no mouse plugged in at all, the problems persists. Adjusting the faders with my midi controller makes the same noise. By now, with the problem happening with no video card or mouse plugged in, it can be assumed my gaming gear isn't related.

 
But the drivers are still installed. I've had problems with some audio interface drivers with ASIO4ALL installed, even when using the native drivers and ASIO4ALL is just sitting there. Those nVidia driver packages are what, over 100MB? They put a lot of files into your system.
 
 Same with the Saffire which performs flawlessly in all other asio software I can throw at it. In any case, this is certainly eye-opening: cross-platform software isn't necessarily worse than windows exclusive.


My point about cross-platform is that by being Windows-only, Sonar can take advantage of esoteric Windows features that are less likely to be used by cross-platform software. The same holds for Logic on the Mac. This is also a reason why you won't see a Mac port of Sonar any time soon; it's too intertwined with the Windows OS. Separating them would be a Heculean task. But this also means that if Windows sneezes, Sonar catches a cold.
 
What I'm saying is:
 
1. If it was a universally-applicable audio engine problem, you wouldn't be the only person experiencing it. I've logged major hours in these forums and never saw a post that moving faders caused issues. This isn't to say I might have missed it, but what you're describing is at best extremely rare.
2. It seems logical that the issues are the result of the audio engine interacting with...something. But we don't know what, So a re-install won't help, because it won't change the nature of the interaction.
3. No one else has been able to offer a solution, presumably because the people reading this thread haven't experienced it.
4. The issue of installing a graphics card and having problems appear makes something involving the graphics card suspect. But, it could also be coincidence.
 
One last-ditch thought: You mentioned Kontakt. I had some very strange crackling problems related to mouse movements in the track view (not console view, interestingly enough) that happened only in projects that had instances of Kontakt. After I updated Kontakt, the problem went away. Are you on the latest updates of the software that you're using in this particular project?
2014/04/21 21:10:42
robert_e_bone
If it still had the registration stuff, then there were pieces still left over.
 
If you would like to do a complete removal of Sonar X3, here is a link I just typed up yesterday for someone:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2914367
 
Bob Bone
 
2014/04/21 22:51:04
Spencer
Well, yeah, I did say that the only thing that changed was a new graphics card, but it might very well have been before or after that the problem started occurring. I just didn't take notice of it before a few days back, at first I erroneously attributed the problem to the hard drive my samples are on (confirmed to be unrelated). I mean, I have always had a nVidia driver installed. That's nothing new for my system. I even re-installed the one I had when I know for sure Sonar used to work fine. This, combined with knowing that the problem occurs even with the card sitting on my desk, to me is enough to rule out the possibility. Same with the mouse. Again the issue couldn't possibly have anything less to do with the mouse, which has always worked perfectly before and still does, since midi control does the same thing when the mouse isn't plugged in at all.
 
It's not related to Kontakt or any instrument. Stand-alone kontakt has no issues. It can be a raw sine wave from z3ta+, an audio track with 808 kicks in it, or anything at all as long as it has bass frequencies and it will click/pop and the fader will make noise, otherwise no. If I take my zeta sine, play a low note, then high-pass the bass, no fader noise. Sonar has just decided for me that I have too much bass in my projects, which sadly won't get me anywhere since I produce urban/dance music. I'd gladly switch for non-working high freqs if I could!
 
I'll re-install again tomorrow as per these instructions, see if it helps. Hopefully I'll be in contact with support by then as well.
2014/04/21 22:57:38
Anderton
If you turn down the master fader far enough, does the problem go away? Does the issue relate to levels at all, or do you get the same effect regardless of where the master fader is set?
2014/04/21 23:00:53
Spencer
Yes, same problem irregardless of levels. Don't worry, I'm militant about clipping, nothing is ever in the red over here. So, no, it doesn't discriminate about levels. Speaking of which, the bus/master faders make noise as well. Not only the audio tracks.
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