• Computers
  • Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire (p.4)
2017/06/16 17:53:10
vladasyn
After looking at all the numbers and options, I did something crazy, and... bought MOTU. Thank you, Rob, for suggesting it. I got Motu 1248 and Motu 16A. Just one for now, will test connections and make sure it working before I buy 2nd 16A.
So what now?
I have Asus Rog Maximus Here Z270 motherboard.
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-MAXIMUS-IX-HERO/specifications/
 
It has
1 x USB 3.1 Gen 2 (black, oval)USB Type-CTM
1 x USB 3.1 Gen 2 (red)Type-A
The MOTU rep says- check your specs- it may just work with USB Type C. This is frustrating- nobody knows for sure. Asus does not know.
 
This is the ThunderboltEX 3 card
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboard-Accessory/ThunderboltEX-3/
It actually hard to find. So do I need it? And what cable do I need? USB Type C to Thunderbolt? Thank you.
2017/06/16 17:54:31
vladasyn
Please, see my post above. I actually heard that Presonus new Studiolive Ethernet only works on Macs. Rep from MOTU told me it will not work.
2017/06/16 18:37:30
Jim Roseberry
FWIW, The ASIO spec itself only allows a single audio interface.
With multiple units (from different companies), you'd have potential clocking issues (tracks drifting out of sync), etc.
Not an elegant solution to a more complex setup...
 
My thoughts on MOTU:
Yes... MOTU does make some "consumer" level gear.
IMO, Their consumer level gear is better than many other companies' offerings.
ie:  The Ultralite AVB offers great bang-for-the-buck ($650).  
  • Average noise-floor is ~-114dB
  • Round-trip latency performance is excellent (sub 5ms at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size 44.1k)
  • Routing is extremely flexible
Their larger (full rack) AVB series is what I'd call "professional" level.
Specs are actually slightly better than the RME Fireface UFX.
  • Average noise-floor is ~-117dB
  • Round-trip latency is sub 3ms when connected via Thunderbolt
  • MOTU has full "PCIe via Thunderbolt" support (actually available for a good while now)
Now, are the MOTU AVB series on par (fidelity wise) with boutique converters like Burl?  No.
You can't expect that... given the cost.
You could absolutely track a professional sounding record with the MOTU 1248.
 
Regarding USB vs. Thunderbolt:
Under ideal circumstances, Thunderbolt offers performance equal to PCIe.
The best USB-2 audio interfaces (like RME's Fireface UFX) offer low-latency performance that's very close to the best Thunderbolt units.  In fact, comparing the Fireface UFX to the Apollo, at the same ASIO buffer size, the Fireface UFX offers slightly lower round-trip latency.  
At a 64-sample ASIO buffer size 44.1k
  • Fireface UFX yields 5.1ms total round-trip latency
  • Apollo yields 5.4ms total round-trip latency
The smallest ASIO buffer size offered by the Fireface UFX is 48-samples.
Total round-trip latency (at 44.1k) is 4.3ms.
The smallest ASIO buffer size offered by the Apollo is 32-samples.
Total round-trip latency (at 44.1k) is 3.9ms.
Even for someone who's extremely picky about latency, that difference is minute.
(You can run heavier loads at a 48-sample ASIO buffer size than at a 32-sample ASIO buffer size.)
 
FWIW, Sonar isn't adding bottom-end to recorded tracks.
If that's happening, it's something on the front-end (mics, preamps, A/D).
 
If you have the budget for boutique gear, it'll certainly deliver.
But... I think one can become "choice paralyzed" chasing perfection.
"Perfection" can also be a moving target.
No different than talking about the perfect instrument (guitar, bass, drums, keyboards, etc).
Our idea of what's "best" can change (especially over time).
At some point, fidelity is good enough.
Song and performance will handily trump all the above.
I don't think any record has ever been bought (or not) based on the converters used... or the sample-rate.
 
If the Goliath offers low-latency performance on par with the RME Fireface UFX (when connected via USB), I seriously doubt you'd be disappointed.  
 
 
 
 
 
2017/06/16 18:43:48
Jim Roseberry
HighAndDry
I find it hard to believe that AVB will not work on windows



AVB (via Ethernet port) does not currently work under Windows.
FWIW, round-trip latency isn't particularly low when connecting via Ethernet... so (IMO) no big loss.
 
The AVB audio interfaces definitely do work (when connected via Thunderbolt-3) under Win10.
 
If you're working in a commercial capacity, you can get a MOTU AVB switch (to route audio to/from multiple rooms/rigs/etc)
2017/06/16 18:58:36
Jim Roseberry
vladasyn
After looking at all the numbers and options, I did something crazy, and... bought MOTU. Thank you, Rob, for suggesting it. I got Motu 1248 and Motu 16A. Just one for now, will test connections and make sure it working before I buy 2nd 16A.
So what now?
I have Asus Rog Maximus Here Z270 motherboard.
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-MAXIMUS-IX-HERO/specifications/
 
It has
1 x USB 3.1 Gen 2 (black, oval)USB Type-CTM
1 x USB 3.1 Gen 2 (red)Type-A
The MOTU rep says- check your specs- it may just work with USB Type C. This is frustrating- nobody knows for sure. Asus does not know.
 
This is the ThunderboltEX 3 card
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboard-Accessory/ThunderboltEX-3/
It actually hard to find. So do I need it? And what cable do I need? USB Type C to Thunderbolt? Thank you.




Good choice on the MOTU AVB series.
 
Important to note:
A motherboard can have USB-3.1 and not have USB-C port/s or a Thunderbolt-3 controller.
A motherboard can have USB-3.1 and USB-C port/s... and not have a Thunderbolt-3 controller.
The MOTU AVB units (any Thunderbolt peripheral for that matter) will not work if the motherboard doesn't have a Thunderbolt-3 controller.
 
Your motherboard has a Thunderbolt-3 header... which supports their TB3 add-in-card.
Install the TB3 into a full-length PCIe slot (see the instructions).
The TB3 card comes with a short cable.  Connect this to the TB3 header on the motherboard.
In the BIOS, under Thunderbolt settings, you'll need to enable USB for the card to work.
Asus is mum about this small detail.  
 
You will absolutely need a USB-C to Thunderbolt adapter.
We've had very good luck with the Apple adapter.
Relatively inexpensive... and it's worked in every scenario we've tried (many different motherboards as well as laptops).
2017/06/16 21:28:10
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
HighAndDry
I find it hard to believe that AVB will not work on windows


I think he was talking about plugging the AVB directly into the LAN port which is not possible on Windows but via TB or USB you can connect one unit and then connect the others via AVB ...

Edit: Jim's replies said it all - very informative as always, nothing to add ... I liked the remark "At some point, fidelity is good enough. Song and performance will handily trump all the above. I don't think any record has ever been bought (or not) based on the converters used... or the sample-rate." We should remind ourselves more often !
2017/06/16 21:55:03
vladasyn
Finally I hear the right answer. Thanks, Jim. I figured- I will save almost $3000- I can but all another keyboard for such money. Trying to find a Thunderbolt card now. It is ThunderboltEX 3. Ordered from some unknown retailer, they sold out everywhere. What is this cable I need? Thank you.
2017/06/17 13:11:14
Jim Roseberry
vladasyn
Finally I hear the right answer. Thanks, Jim. I figured- I will save almost $3000- I can but all another keyboard for such money. Trying to find a Thunderbolt card now. It is ThunderboltEX 3. Ordered from some unknown retailer, they sold out everywhere. What is this cable I need? Thank you.



The cable to connect to the TB Header on the motherboard is included with the Thunderbolt EX3.  
 
FWIW, I think you'll be very pleased with the MOTU AVB setup. 
2017/06/17 16:26:05
vladasyn
Ok, ordered Apple Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter ($52).
 
But what cable do I use from the MOTU to the adopter? I need 6 feet minimum distance or even 9 feet, depending which rack I will be using. Any recommendations?
 
Would it matter how long Cat 5 or Cat 6 cable is? I have my keyboards on 2 sides of my desk. I could put one MOTU in one rack on the left, another MOTU in another rack on the right. Do I have to put two units close together in the same rack for the sake of them being seen as one unit with minimal latency? I heard that Cat 5 travels pretty good, and cable length does not matter that much, or should I keep them close together? Any difference between Cat 5, Cat 5E or Cat 6? Thank you.
 
Vent: I am so angry at Presonus for not signing the drivers! I have StudioLive 24 sitting here idle because the driver is not working on the new computer. Aside of it taking huge space in the studio, I have all 24 channels taken with cables running behind my desk mixed with cables from 3 computers and 5 monitors and MIDI and USB cables for 15 keyboards and modules. How am I supposed to unplug everything and rewire? I cant pull cables- they all tangled together! I can't move my desk- it is too heavy. It has too much equipment on it- speakers, monitors, KVM switch... I was tempted to leave everything plugged to Presonus and run stereo out cable from main to MOTU. But this is not the right way to do it. Can I sue Presonus for all the inconvenience?
2017/06/17 17:27:07
Jim Roseberry
vladasyn
Ok, ordered Apple Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter ($52).
 
But what cable do I use from the MOTU to the adopter? I need 6 feet minimum distance or even 9 feet, depending which rack I will be using. Any recommendations?
 
Would it matter how long Cat 5 or Cat 6 cable is? I have my keyboards on 2 sides of my desk. I could put one MOTU in one rack on the left, another MOTU in another rack on the right. Do I have to put two units close together in the same rack for the sake of them being seen as one unit with minimal latency? I heard that Cat 5 travels pretty good, and cable length does not matter that much, or should I keep them close together? Any difference between Cat 5, Cat 5E or Cat 6? Thank you.
 



You'll need a Thunderbolt cable.
You can get a 9.8 foot Thunderbolt cable for ~$50.
That'll connect the MOTU AVB to the Apple adapter... which will plug into the USB-C port on your Thunderbolt EX3.
 
I'd go with Cat-5e or Cat-6 cable (higher quality cable).
I believe maximum cable length is 100 meters.  
I'd keep the units close together for logistical/organizational reasons.
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