Like Jimmyboy, I rarely even get a reply when I report a bug (mind you I've only done it a few times) - or if I do get a reply, it's something like "we're gonna have a look at this...", and then hear nothing.

I just figured that that's the way it is - and it's probably too difficult to keep in touch with everyone who has logged a (real or imaginary) bug anyway.

So that's what we have the forums for... ;-)

 
> Our state of the art bug tracking system is already the best resource for known issues.
 
> > So how do we get access to this so we can make sure we are not wasting time logging duplicate bugs? It's a bit of a timewaster logging dupe issues.
 
Duplicate reports are actually useful to us. When multiple individuals take the time to fill out a report for an issue, this means it is particularly troublesome and we bump the priority. 

> > How do we respond when you withdraw an issue as not reproducible when we forgot a step, or maybe you might have missed something. Why must we always have to log the issue again?


This process could be better. I'll let our web team know about this issue for consideration.
 
> > And when you withdraw the issue as a duplicate, how are we supposed to track when there is no issue number?
 
You're not supposed to "track" anything. That's our job and we do this quite well. You're supposed to make music. As I stated above, user discussions are extremely helpful to us. If there is a particular issue or set of issues that are troublesome for you, in your personal work flow, please bring it up for discussion on the forum. 

> > Would you think a list of known issues would not be useful to people?
 
Yes, and we have that covered. Keep in mind each user has a unique experience with the product.  Some issues they may run into, others never. What's useful to us is knowing whether experience effects many users and/or cripples the feature. This helps us determine how to sculpt features and what issues to fix. Broad lists of issues lead other Sonar users to post to that list, thinking the originator of the list works for the company and the problem will be solved. An important issue can easily get hidden and the problem will not be solved. 
 
> > And as you probably know, we found 2 regression problems from the list in X3E last time. 
 
This can happen when mixing coding and deadlines. Once change can effect something completely non-related.  We appreciate the report and any new regressions get treated with higher priority. 
 
> > Do you want to work with us in improving your product? We certainly have been doing our very best to work with you with minimal feedback from QA :) Some of us have been working pretty hard for nothing...
 
You really don't need feedback from QA. Our role is to listen and pass your feedback to our Product and Engineering teams. Improving the product is a group effort. Thanks to our Engineering, Technical support, Product and QA staff, as well as the feedback from our customers, the product has improved greatly over the years. Please don't confuse the time it takes to develop quality software in response to customer feedback with our not listening. 

> > I'd rather not keep a list but it is all we have.
 
You may keep the list if you like. However, be aware that it can stand in the way of true feedback from our customers. It confuses other forum users into thinking you work for Cakewalk and it can obscure the severity of one issue over the other. I recommend you use Sonar to make music and use the forum to discuss your personal likes and dislikes when using the product. We are more than happy to do the work of listening to feedback and maintaining bug lists. 
 

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]

JimmyBoy

Dan Cate [Cakewalk]
Hi John,
 
Reports that are sent in by users are verified and put into the cue for development. Email notifications are sent let users know the bug is in the system and being processed rather than sent into oblivion. How a bug gets processed is privileged information for Cakewalk staff only. We do not, nor should we, share this information. When an upgrade or update is released, we provide a report of bugs fixed in a KB article which includes the issue description and cwbrn numbers. 
 
As I stated above, user discussions are extremely helpful to us. If there is a particular issue or set of issues that are troublesome for you, please bring it up for discussion on the forum. I recommend using a separate thread and including cwbrn numbers if you have them. 

 
hi Dan,
 
I logged a bug several months ago and I know it is reproducible as others here had also confirmed the same. I have yet to have any response at all from the bug I reported. From my perspective the bug logged has gone into oblivion :/ I can't even access the bug I reported to see if there will be any progress on it or not...
 
Cheers
Jim

Hi Jim,
 
I only see two fault reports matching your email address. Did you manually send a bug report in or was it through the fault reporter? If you sent it in manually did you use a different email address? If you know the CWBRN #s I should be able to look it up, but I only came up with two results that were from fault reports.
 
We don't reply to fault reports. Here's the additional info that explains what happens next:

 
Hi Ryan,
 
If it wasn't for google & Alex's bug list I'd lose all track of the bug report I submitted, try this link here and you will see it 2nd from the top...
 
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=jimmyboy+CWBRN+site%3Aforum.cakewalk.com
 
Cheers
Jim

JimmyBoy
 
Hi Ryan,
 
If it wasn't for google & Alex's bug list I'd lose all track of the bug report I submitted, try this link here and you will see it 2nd from the top...
 
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=jimmyboy+CWBRN+site%3Aforum.cakewalk.com
 
Cheers
Jim

Hi Jim,
 
I don't rely on an unofficial list to try to find out who submitted what. I'm using the actual tools which only shows two reports matching your email address tied to the forum account. The only explanation is that you're referring to the fault reports I found or you used a different email address.
 
There's no need to send me "let me google that for you" links. I know how to reference the real systems we have in place. If you want to PM me your email addresses I could easily return a list of every report you've ever submitted to us so you don't have to use Google.
 
Thanks!
 
-Ryan
 
 
 
 

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]

JimmyBoy
 
Hi Ryan,
 
If it wasn't for google & Alex's bug list I'd lose all track of the bug report I submitted, try this link here and you will see it 2nd from the top...
 
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=jimmyboy+CWBRN+site%3Aforum.cakewalk.com
 
Cheers
Jim

Hi Jim,
 
I don't rely on an unofficial list to try to find out who submitted what. I'm using the actual tools which only shows two reports matching your email address tied to the forum account. The only explanation is that you're referring to the fault reports I found or you used a different email address.
 
There's no need to send me "let me google that for you" links. I know how to reference the real systems we have in place. If you want to PM me your email addresses I could easily return a list of every report you've ever submitted to us so you don't have to use Google.
 
Thanks!
 
-Ryan
 
 
 
 

Hi Ryan,
 
Thanks for looking into this for me.... Really appreciate it, I know sometimes "state of the art" systems can fail and from time to time we need to look closer into it - I should have followed up earlier but had no time to do so as so many other things have a much more higher priority for me these days than to report some problem with your system.
 
Anyway, the email I used to file the report is the email I have registered with this forum user.
 
The use of lmgtfy is simply an illustration of the experience I have when logging a bug, and how frustrating it can become when expecting an update that never arrives and also not being able to lookup the bug I originally logged..
 
Cheers
Jim

Thanks Jim,

Yah I think we can improve that experience a bit for users, which is what I was eluding to a few posts back.

In the meantime though, if you ever lose track of a case number or anything like that feel free to let me know. I can locate the details for you.

Look what I've done and others is quite simple. Made sure there are clear steps to reproduce so that Cake QA can reproduce before it gets into their hands. We've then added it to a list so we can keep track as well as others. This has been a time consuming thankless task between sessions.

I have recently been told indirectly that since Dec when I started this directly after X3D Cakewalk has been receiving accurate and efficient reports. That's when I started this list out. I consider what we have done as extremely successful.

As a consequence I've been accused of being a Starlin to Hitler or 'some random bloke'. A lot of bad vibes as though we are here to create havok or I'm on some massive ego trip. Being told what we are doing is wrong does nothing but reinforce those views.

I will continue to monitor my state of art forum post as it helps me and others. When you come up with something better for consumers I shall abandon it, in the meantime I don't see anything wrong with it. We have been very careful in making sure the reports are accurate. I am happy to move it to a third party website if required. I think it was a mistake to rake up this discussion in public, we were after all discussing and lobbying for an X3F here, I'm easily PM'able and skypeable it could have easily been done out of public view.

Of course Cakewalk runs the show, but a little credit would have been nice with what we have done rather than usual putdowns which never ever reference what we actually do, rather how our personalities are supposedly perceived.

I state time after time Cakewalk having been doing a great job releasing patches.

Thank you...

In my opinion - and again, I'm not speaking for Cakewalk - it's not that you're doing something "wrong." The problem is that this forum isn't intended to be a bug-tracking forum, so that lowers the signal-to-noise ratio for those expecting a forum that's devoted to using the software, solving problems, etc. IIRC it's only with X3 that the forum developed this split personality. So, people who aren't interested in bug-tracking find that the multiple threads interfere with their user experience. To quote Herman Cain, "I don't have the facts to back me up" but I sense that the majority of people who come to these forums are more interested in the function it has served traditionally. They "get" that bugs exist, which they care about to one degree of another, but they care primarily about making music with the software and getting answers to questions.
 
I think the fruits of your labor are in the updates. You say you've been very pleased with the updates, well, that's because of people like you and others who submit detailed bug reports with reproducible steps. That is incredibly valuable to Cakewalk. But, the people processing this information are charged with acting on this information, so I'm not surprised that they may not spend much time acknowledging the assistance the user base provides on a personal basis. However whenever there's an update, the user input is always mentioned prominently, and with appreciation. I believe almost all the bug fixes in X3e originated with user reports.
 
Now, here I do speak with some knowledge of internal discussions - Cakewalk values the user community very highly, I would go so far as to say more than most software companies. People at Cakewalk are actively looking into ways to have a more interactive experience with users who report bugs, which is what Ryan alluded to. Several options are under consideration but obviously, nothing has been implemented yet.
 
Until then, using the bug/tracking reporting system provides the maximum benefit to the programmers whose duty is to deal with any bugs, but is not ideal from the standpoint of users who want to be kept up to date on progress. Cakewalk is aware of this and wants to make improvements.
 

Craig we just make sure the bugs are easily reproducable and create a list out of it. It ain't rocket science. I still love you and Cakewalk to bits but really it shouldn't be perceived as anything more complicated than this. If Cake QA want to take this task over then great as long as there is some accoutability and clear feedback I suggest. This is why these things are happening the way they are right now. I look forward to being obsolete very soon.

Dan Cate [Cakewalk]
With reports from our users, what is helpful to us in determining bug severity is info on how the defect is effecting your workflow, 
 

 
I suggest you consider adding a box (to the Problem Reporter form) to enter this information. I never mentioned in tens of my reports how the issue affects my workflow because I thought you didn't want us to include it (to save your time). I believe many didn't include it, either. CW's intention (what you and Ryan posted here) are not visible in the explanations in the Problem Reporter section.
 
 

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