• SONAR
  • SONAR Reconsideration 1.2 TRACK VIEW - clips, grooves, linking
2014/04/18 05:29:48
Jekyll Vance
The first part on Track view is here: http://forum.cakewalk.com/SONAR-Reconsideration-11-TRACK-VIEW-Colors-m3026804.aspx
 
1.2.1 MIDI Groove clips.
 
First of all, to be consistent, looping must work on midi clips, like it does on audio-clips and step-sequencer clips in Sonar and on midi clips in other DAWs. In other words, stretching midi groove clip must be a quick way to create LINKED repetitions. Because now, if you want to get the 8-times repeated linked fragment, you must copy it 8 times with “copy as linked” option enabled, instead of just stretching in to the point you need. On the other hand, if you want to create UNLINKED repeated fragments (that is how midi-groove looping works now) you can easily stretch it while being linked and then bounce them in one click to unlink. Having groove clips unlinked is illogical and just brings a mess to the workflow – they look different, but in fact they are just like simple MIDI clips and behave different that looped step-sequencer and audioclips. Moreover, midi groove-clip looping must be enabled on each new clip by default (a la Reaper). Default slip-editing of existing none-groove clip is almost useless, especially stretching it out - it just yields an empty area. On the other hand, many of us work in patterns, so making a fragment and then repeating it several times is the way to go. There also should be a loop repetition line indicator inside piano roll to give us full control of loop (look like it’s done in Reaper)
 
 
2014/04/18 05:32:58
Jekyll Vance
1.2.2. Linked clips
Sometimes you want it linked, sometimes not (50/50, in my case). Instead of asking every time what to do (and having the default option in preferences), it would be wise to have a key modifier for this purpose, for example, ctrl-drag makes unlinked copy, alt-drag – linked copy. This is far more convenient (AFAIK, it works this way in Cubase).
 
1.2.3  Also, there’s no need for the separate specific linking for step-sequencer clips. Now when MIDI-clips are unified between PR and SS, this is certainly excessive. For example, when I copy clip in SS mode and “copy clips as linked clips” is activated, it becomes double-linked! So, to unlink it, I must perform first “unlink SS clips” and then again “unlink” from context menu. This is a mess. When I need clips linked, I can link them once in usual way, as described above.
 
2014/04/18 05:37:00
Jekyll Vance
 1.2.4  A desirable option for me - to be able to completely hide all muted clips from track view, not only in inline piano roll mode (e.g., useful when you don’t want to see them cause you don’t use them in your current arrangement, but want to keep them in place just in case you want to change something)
 
1.2.5.   Midi clips snap offset. Audio clips have it, why midi don’t? For example, I have a humanized midi piece that starts slightly before the measure line, but I want it to snap to measure to more easily arrange them.
 
1.2.6.  A little underregulated is creation of new MIDI clip. What if I already have an existing clip, but want the new note to be a part of new clip? If I get it right, Sonar creates a new clip, if new note is more than a one beat wide from previous. But what if I want clips to contact or even partially overlap? Of cause, I can data-lock already existing clip, like I used to do it in Sonar 8.5.3, create new clip and then unlock the old one, but this definitely doesn't seem like the most elegant way to do it.
 
1.2.7.   Step sequencer clips. I guess, if midi clips are now at last unified between PR and SS view (i.e. you can select in which view to open them and they are automatically converted), “Convert Midi clips to Step Sequencer” entry can be removed from the clip’s context menu.
 
2014/04/18 05:50:25
Jekyll Vance
1.2.8. Clip properties window. I understand there’s some logic behind decision to nest all properties in track inspector window, but in fact it’s inconvenient. First of all, track inspector is too small to nicely show everything, the old 8.5.3. separate popping up window was much clearer to my point of view than blue-on black properties list that we have now with most words not fully visible. It also partially overlaps inspector itself, that isn’t look very nice. Instead of logically use context menu, as we do with notes, with clips we have to move our eyes to the left of the screen, then click on small “Cl” button, then click to extend submenus.  In addition, if I like to work with TI minimized, every time I want to check clip properties it extends and pushes track view to the right, then back.  
Bug: When double-click behavior is set to show clip properties and TI is half-size, clip properties window is displayed cropped and useless (bug, I suppose). The same with key binding  (Shift+I). It won’t be so bad, but the parameters names have an empty space before them, that is just a waste. I’d suggest bringing back old clip properties window, but maybe making it customizably transparent. Or, maybe even better – turn properties window into a dedicated properties view that can be tabbed in multidock. This way it can be always visible if needed and won’t interfere with track inspector.
2014/04/18 06:01:18
Jekyll Vance
1.2.9. Midi Clip FX bouncing
- Say, I have an FX in several clips' bins on track and want to apply them to clips. If they were in the track bin, I'd go to “Process - apply effect”, but in case with clip FX bins this option is inactive! Why?
If I select them all at once and use “bounce to clip”, I will bounce everything to single clip and lose my clip structure. Therefore, the only way I can apply FX is to select each clip separately and bounce it. And, anyway, there’s no way to apply FX to clips and keep them as grooves!
- Also, when bouncing groove midi clips, they also lose their pitch information without corresponding transposition.  
 
1.2.10. When bouncing / applying audio effects to clip, resulting new clip must inherit its name from predecessor. Why must I rename it every time I perform such operation? 
 
1.2.11. FX bins of linked clips should be also linked. The idea is to keep them synchronized, isn’t it? So, if I want to apply FX, why must I do it separately for each repetition? I should be able to apply FX to one of the linked clips and others must follow the changes, preserving "linked" state after it. In case I want to apply FX separately, I can first unlink the clip I need, that's all. It seems more logical to me. At least we could have such option in .ini file.  
 
1.2.12. In SonarX, you can bypass clip’s FX bin (audio/midi), but there’s no any indication of is FX bin active or bypassed! – “FX” mark looks the same in both cases. In Sonar 8.5.3 bypassed status was clearly visible. 
 
1.2.13.- BUG? When applying audio effects from track FX into linked audio clips, it actually applies to only one of them, and this clip loses link with others. Others remain unchanged. For comparison: when doing the same for midi clips, applying FX affects all linked clips on track and they remain linked after this = proper behavior. Don't know if it is a bug or it's conceived to work this way, which is rather weird in my opinion.
 
2014/04/18 06:06:12
Jekyll Vance
1.2.14  A smart feature in Reaper is a possibility to create fade ins/fade outs on MIDI/instrument tracks, which translate to associated soft synth volume fades. Very useful, this way you don’t have to bounce midi to audio or create dedicated volume envelope for instrument track (like you have to do it in Sonar) 
 Also, I propose to provide "Process – fade/envelope" functionality for non-destructive fades, which are much more often used, than destructive ones.
 
1.2.15  Also quite useful feature is midi clip offset (done in Reaper with alt-drag on clip) – it “rewinds” clip content and offsets it back or forth, while preserving clip borders on timeline. Just like notes shift in Step sequencer. In Sonar, this can be done with Smart Tool Alt+Shift on regular clips, but, for some reason, it cannot be made on looped groove clips - that's a disappointment.
2014/04/18 09:56:11
John
Jekyll Vance
The first part on Track view is here: http://forum.cakewalk.com/SONAR-Reconsideration-11-TRACK-VIEW-Colors-m3026804.aspx
 
1.2.1 MIDI Groove clips.
 
First of all, to be consistent, looping must work on midi clips, like it does on audio-clips and step-sequencer clips in Sonar and on midi clips in other DAWs. In other words, stretching midi clip must be a quick way to create LINKED repetitions. Because now, if you want to get the 8-times repeated linked fragment, you must copy it 8 times with “copy as linked” option enabled, instead of just stretching in to the point you need. On the other hand, if you want to create UNLINKED repeated fragments (that is how midi-groove looping works now) you can easily stretch it while being linked and then bounce them in one click to unlink. Having groove clips unlinked is illogical and just brings a mess to the workflow – they look different, but in fact they are just like simple MIDI clips and behave different that looped step-sequencer and audioclips. Moreover, midi groove-clip looping must be enabled on each new clip by default (a la Reaper). Default slip-editing of existing none-groove clip is almost useless, especially stretching it out - it just yields an empty area. On the other hand, many of us work in patterns, so making a fragment and then repeating it several times is the way to go. There also should be a loop repetition line indicator inside piano roll to give us full control of loop (look like it’s done in Reaper)
 
 


You need to make the clip a grove clip and then you can stretch it out for looping. 
2014/04/19 06:30:54
Jekyll Vance
John
You need to make the clip a grove clip and then you can stretch it out for looping. 



John, I know it. Please pay attention - the point is that I cannot create linked repetitions this way. When stretching audio loop, for example, every repetition is linked with other (editing one repetition affects all the others). Midi grooves in Sonar behave differently and that's misleading and unconvenient, as I described above. Moreover, making grooves from clips each time I need it is time-consuming, grooves must be enabled by defaut, because there's a liitle use in stretching regular midi clips anyway. Agreed?
2014/04/19 07:40:31
John
Jekyll Vance
John
You need to make the clip a grove clip and then you can stretch it out for looping. 



John, I know it. Please pay attention - the point is that I cannot create linked repetitions this way. When stretching audio loop, for example, every repetition is linked with other (editing one repetition affects all the others). Midi grooves in Sonar behave differently and that's misleading and unconvenient, as I described above. Moreover, making grooves from clips each time I need it is time-consuming, grooves must be enabled by defaut, because there's a liitle use in stretching regular midi clips anyway. Agreed?


Its hard to follow you. And I don't have to pay attention. I have no idea what you are asking or why. Nor am I going to read everything you wrote. Simplify it and you may get more responses. 
2014/04/19 11:06:16
icontakt
Hello again. My advice is...
 
  • if you simply want to make a request to add, modify or remove a feature, submit a feature request from here: http://www.cakewalk.com/support/contact/featurerequest.aspx
  • if you are wondering if the issue you've found is a bug or not, submit a bug report from here and if you want to share the info with us, start a new thread about it:
    http://www.cakewalk.com/support/contact/problemreport.aspx
  • if you want to discuss the current implementation of a certain feature or need advice, workarounds, etc., start a new thread only with that particular topic (I recommend one or two topics a day at most)
 
I've read some of your posts here and in the other thread, and you seem to make good points. It's a shame you decided to put all these together to make two (or more) long threads.
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