2017/02/09 12:02:15
BobF
Voda La Void
I didn't read about any magic.  It's just science.  
 
"This is analogous to the low frequency and high frequency signals being present in the same cable; they have combined within the transfer medium to create a new frequency which was not in the original signal in a process known as intermodulation. Wherever there is non-linearity in a system which carries multiple different frequencies there will be amplitude modulation made up of the sum and difference of the original frequencies and in addition, harmonics of these sum and difference frequencies. Unlike some types of harmonic distortion this type of distortion is not nice to listen to and although non-linearity in good hi-fi equipment is generally very small, it is enough to produce intermodulation distortions which are bothersome to the listener."
 
 
 
They seem to be selling the notion that the intermodulation effects from all of those frequencies sharing the cable run can somehow be heard, to the point that we'll notice an improvement if we separate them.  

Which is just a can of worms, because there are *still* intermodulation effects on both separate runs as well.  The frequency range present on each cable is narrower, because the cross overs have partitioned highs from lows, but as long as there are a range of frequencies present, nonlinear to each other, there will be a sum and difference between these frequencies and will create another frequency.  Albeit, smaller in magnitude.  
 
What we really need is hex wiring.  We need 16 runs, with 16 cross-overs splitting up the spectrum into 16 chunks - then we'll REALLY knock out the intermod.  




Until it all hits the same speaker where everything is "remixed"
 
2017/02/09 12:37:39
bapu
BobF
 
Until it all hits the same speaker where everything is "remixed"
 




 
2017/02/09 13:38:38
drewfx1
Voda La Void
I didn't read about any magic.  It's just science.  
 
"This is analogous to the low frequency and high frequency signals being present in the same cable; they have combined within the transfer medium to create a new frequency which was not in the original signal in a process known as intermodulation. Wherever there is non-linearity in a system which carries multiple different frequencies there will be amplitude modulation made up of the sum and difference of the original frequencies and in addition, harmonics of these sum and difference frequencies. Unlike some types of harmonic distortion this type of distortion is not nice to listen to and although non-linearity in good hi-fi equipment is generally very small, it is enough to produce intermodulation distortions which are bothersome to the listener."
 
 
 
They seem to be selling the notion that the intermodulation effects from all of those frequencies sharing the cable run can somehow be heard, to the point that we'll notice an improvement if we separate them.  

Which is just a can of worms, because there are *still* intermodulation effects on both separate runs as well.  The frequency range present on each cable is narrower, because the cross overs have partitioned highs from lows, but as long as there are a range of frequencies present, nonlinear to each other, there will be a sum and difference between these frequencies and will create another frequency.  Albeit, smaller in magnitude.  
 
What we really need is hex wiring.  We need 16 runs, with 16 cross-overs splitting up the spectrum into 16 chunks - then we'll REALLY knock out the intermod.  




 
What they are trying to sell is that the intermodulation distortion is caused by the cable.
 
But if you look at what their "proof" actually shows, it's not that the distortion is reduced in the bi-wiring, it's that the crossover is doing it's job - the high frequency side attenuates low frequencies including low frequency distortion and the low frequency side attenuates high frequencies including high frequency distortion. IOW it shows exactly what one would expect if they sent a distorted signal through a crossover. Note that the spikes indicating distortion don't disappear but are just attenuated along with the noise at the same frequency. 
 
 
Oh, and who didn't notice the HUGE FREAKING low frequency spike that isn't in any of the other signals in the bi-wired tweeter cable picture? 
2017/02/09 13:54:52
SteveStrummerUK
craigb
Oh, speaker cabling?   I thought this thread was about Eph!  My bad.  




Hah!
2017/02/09 14:24:03
jamesg1213
drewfx1
 
Oh, and who didn't notice the HUGE FREAKING low frequency spike that isn't in any of the other signals in the bi-wired tweeter cable picture? 




 
Me.
 
My vision was blurred by tears of hopeless, soul-drowned despair.
2017/02/09 17:00:11
tlw
The cable intermodulation thing can be a factor, but at radio frequencies not audio.

The same applies to the claims about complicatedely constructed cables with a mix of thin and thick cores to "optimise" wave-forms that travel through the conductor skin not core. It does happen yes, but at radio frequencies.

Heavy-gauge mains cable that can handle 13 or more amps makes excellent and cheap speaker cable. The 2.5mm^2 cored cable sold for PA use is even better because it's usually made from Oxygen Free Copper (OFC). Which makes little if any audible difference but removing the free oxygen atoms that are usually present in annealed copper wire means the cable is much less prone to internal corrosion ("black rot") so the cables last longer. Which is usually a good thing if the cable in question is going to be installed then left to just do its thing for years.

Edited to add - and as we all know, 'directional' speaker cables are a bit of a joke. Because even if electrical field flow in a wire could go faster in one direction compared to another audio is alternating current not direct current which means the electrical current goes forwards and backwards. So if the claims for directional cables were true the AC waves that push the speaker out would be getting there faster than the ones that go the other way. I doubt that would improve the audio even if it were audible given that electricity flows through copper wire at a heck of a speed and speaker cables usually aren't miles long.
2017/02/09 20:16:45
DrLumen
If one were to only use a single enclosure per channel and a single amp then bi-wiring is just overkill. However, if one were to bi-amp the speaker then you can set the crossover frequencies (assuming any internal crossover is bypassed). Even if the x-over is not bypassed, you could still balance some by adjusting the power to the respective drivers.
 
But, if one wanted to use multiple cabinets per channel then bi-wiring would allow some flexibility for impedance matching to your amp.
2017/02/09 21:16:52
BobF
How many transducers (eardrums) do I need in each ear to keep all of this stuff separated?
2017/02/09 21:29:53
Guitarhacker
Sounds like a scam to sell more wire.

The same power amp is used. The only thing different is the short length of wire from the amp output to the speakers. The bigger factor is the amp, not the wire.

If you want to go the bi route.... get enough amps and speakers to have discrete bass cabinets and discrete high end cabs. One amp per speaker cabinet and use an active crossover that splits the highs from the lows. Send that info to the proper amp and eliminate the passive crossover and the incurred losses.
 
Just like we used to do with our band PA speakers..... we were tri-amped. More amps, more speakers, and more cables. But we was bad.... and nationwide.
 
OR... send low level signals to powered speakers that are bi-amped internally. Mission accomplished
2017/02/10 12:32:15
DrLumen
Guitarhacker
Sounds like a scam to sell more wire.

The same power amp is used. The only thing different is the short length of wire from the amp output to the speakers. The bigger factor is the amp, not the wire.

If you want to go the bi route.... get enough amps and speakers to have discrete bass cabinets and discrete high end cabs. One amp per speaker cabinet and use an active crossover that splits the highs from the lows. Send that info to the proper amp and eliminate the passive crossover and the incurred losses.
 
Just like we used to do with our band PA speakers..... we were tri-amped. More amps, more speakers, and more cables. But we was bad.... and nationwide.
 
OR... send low level signals to powered speakers that are bi-amped internally. Mission accomplished


Yes, going with individual amps and speakers is the most widely accepted and brute force method. However, there is also an economy of scale to consider. For example, 1 x 800watt amp is cheaper than 2 x 400 watt amps.
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