I have to admit I occasionally had a few crashes when cloning tracks but I never got it in a reprodable scenario. Until we can get steps to reproduce this every time (assuming it's not system specific, in my case it probably was) there's not much that can be done as we don't know the root cause.

I get fairly frequent crashes on two different and in my opinion well maintained systems. By frequent I mean usually once during a multi hour session (in other words, whenever I actually sit down to work). I haven't been able to reproduce any since the Waves VST2/3 thingy, but it sure is annoying as hell. Most of the time, I don't get the Sonar error handler.

I do a lot of vocal editing and comping, earlier today Sonar kept copying instead of moving a clip, then it hung and crashed. I realize this is not helpful in an error solving way but I just wanted to show some support for Guitarmech. I've been there, and it's a little lame to blame the system or the user. Sonar is not bug-free, and while I greatly respect and applaud the way the bakers have been supporting us and the current release, there are some strides to make to catch up with ProTools, Logic, or even Ableton when it comes to stability.

Guitarmech111
I would be happy to check other things that may be wrong with my setup, where would you suggest I look? My setup is pretty stable outside of SONAR btw. I have zero issues in SF, Toontrack products, Vegas Video, etc... Did I mention that 8.5 is as solid as a Rock too?
 
I am sorry you don't approve of my posting issues and you can't grasp what I may be running into or why I do something in a particular way. If you want to gather a collection for Protools HD for me, I would gladly switch platforms. Right now, I can't afford it or I would check it or Studio one out. 

 
We all fight all software at some point (check out my adventure today with Addictive Drums). Sonar has been very stable for me, but I have various problems with Vegas (had a freeze during render yesterday, and also, certain images cause problems even though other images with the same file formats do not). Sound Forge loop points aren't always recognized by SFZ instruments although some are, yet WaveLab's always are...yet Wavelab can recognize Sound Forge's loop points. Pro Tools on my Windows setup can't do latencies below a minimum of 512 samples without crashing although all my other audio programs can do 128 or better (although I haven't updated to PT V11 so maybe those problems are fixed...I don't know).
 
You can post all you want, but it's really frustrating that you keep running into so many problems that I cannot reproduce and in some cases, don't understand fully because I'm not sure of the exact circumstances. This is why it is also hard for others to help.
 
But if the main problem involves issues with older projects, I sympathize. I learned MANY years ago that NO software can be trusted to open old versions, and that includes programs like Word and Excel. The programs change, the formats change, the operating systems change. As a result I have written articles about why it is essential to save ALL DATA in an agnostic format. If you look at my Sonar projects, they all have rendered WAV versions of everything, often in two or three different versions (raw, with all effects and automation, and with automation only). Unfortunately, the only chance you have of opening up an old Sonar project is with Sonar; Pro Tools won't help you there. But if 8.5 works, why not open the projects there, export the raw audio data or a variation thereof, and bring it into X3 to take advantage of its features?
 
Sure, it's a PITA to back up data to this degree, but you have to do it. I have articles in my archives that were originally written to 8" floppy disks using WordStar on an M/PM computer in the late 70s and I can still access them, because I "refreshed" them occasionally into newer formats. I'm sorry to say that has to be done with any data you ever want to use in the future, but this is the tradeoff for using software in today's world.

Sanderxpander
I do a lot of vocal editing and comping, earlier today Sonar kept copying instead of moving a clip, then it hung and crashed. I realize this is not helpful in an error solving way but I just wanted to show some support for Guitarmech. I've been there, and it's a little lame to blame the system or the user. Sonar is not bug-free.

It definitely is not...then again, what software is? But it's important to differentiate between bugs that are found by multiple users and reproducible, vs. one-offs that happen to an individual user. In the latter case, the only options are 1) there's something about the system (we all know about graphics card and backwards compatibility issues, for example), 2) there's something about the user (e.g., hitting a keyboard shortcut by accident and unleashing something strange, or not understanding the subtleties of a particular function), and/or 3) doing some operation that should be valid and should work but is done rarely so other users haven't found it. But when a problem is something as basic as turning a panpot isn't reflected in the meters, I find it really hard to believe it's an inherent fault in the software - wouldn't lots of others have noticed it?
 
It took until the 10th post until it was mentioned off-handedly that the problems happen mostly when loading older projects. That's a HUGE missing piece of data. If I'd known, I would have said "Sorry can't help with that, all my 8.5 projects were transferred over to X-series years ago," and be done with it. Instead, here I am spending a Sunday afternoon trying to reproduce these errors so I can help, only to find out all my efforts are wasted because I'm not trying to work with older projects in current software. No wonder I can't reproduce the problems with a new project created specifically to try and reproduce the problem!!
 
It's also wrong to pretend that the kind of problems we experience with Sonar are unique. I've used a huge variety of software and the longer you use it, the more you find that's wrong. Take at look at the front page of any software forum, or for that matter anything that involves microprocessors (or better yet, Google '[name of program] problems"). Not only will you find enough to keep you busy for months, many of the issues are the same problems people have with Sonar - fourth question down in the Ableton forums right now is "Why Doesn't Mixdown Match the Playback?"
 
As a soon as you use a computer in your work, you are going to run into multiple problems. Those problems may differ - someone might find Cubase crashes all the time while Sonar doesn't, or vice-versa - but the fact is the number of variables a computer introduces into what we do, especially with a program that's tied really tightly to an OS instead of being a port, is mind-boggling. And as I've said many times before, it's only going to get worse and compatibility issues - especially backward compatibility - are only going to get more problematic. So you either put up with occasional crashes, switch programs and hope you don't experience the same problems other people have (then again you might experience different ones), or go back to tape machines...which of course never had any issues

Anderton

Guitarmech111
I would be happy to check other things that may be wrong with my setup, where would you suggest I look? My setup is pretty stable outside of SONAR btw. I have zero issues in SF, Toontrack products, Vegas Video, etc... Did I mention that 8.5 is as solid as a Rock too?
 
I am sorry you don't approve of my posting issues and you can't grasp what I may be running into or why I do something in a particular way. If you want to gather a collection for Protools HD for me, I would gladly switch platforms. Right now, I can't afford it or I would check it or Studio one out. 

 
We all fight all software at some point (check out my adventure today with Addictive Drums). Sonar has been very stable for me, but I have various problems with Vegas (had a freeze during render yesterday, and also, certain images cause problems even though other images with the same file formats do not). Sound Forge loop points aren't always recognized by SFZ instruments although some are, yet WaveLab's always are...yet Wavelab can recognize Sound Forge's loop points. Pro Tools on my Windows setup can't do latencies below a minimum of 512 samples without crashing although all my other audio programs can do 128 or better (although I haven't updated to PT V11 so maybe those problems are fixed...I don't know).
 
You can post all you want, but it's really frustrating that you keep running into so many problems that I cannot reproduce and in some cases, don't understand fully because I'm not sure of the exact circumstances. This is why it is also hard for others to help.
 
But if the main problem involves issues with older projects, I sympathize. I learned MANY years ago that NO software can be trusted to open old versions, and that includes programs like Word and Excel. The programs change, the formats change, the operating systems change. As a result I have written articles about why it is essential to save ALL DATA in an agnostic format. If you look at my Sonar projects, they all have rendered WAV versions of everything, often in two or three different versions (raw, with all effects and automation, and with automation only). Unfortunately, the only chance you have of opening up an old Sonar project is with Sonar; Pro Tools won't help you there. But if 8.5 works, why not open the projects there, export the raw audio data or a variation thereof, and bring it into X3 to take advantage of its features?
 
Sure, it's a PITA to back up data to this degree, but you have to do it. I have articles in my archives that were originally written to 8" floppy disks using WordStar on an M/PM computer in the late 70s and I can still access them, because I "refreshed" them occasionally into newer formats. I'm sorry to say that has to be done with any data you ever want to use in the future, but this is the tradeoff for using software in today's world.

You can be sure that if I thought it was necessary to mention something I certainly would have.  Several of the recent projects I have worked on are from older version of the projects created in prior versions of SONAR. I believe I have stated that in prior threads although I do not expect everyone to memorize my posts. 

In the mainframe software world, which I have been a part of for over 30 years, backwards compatibility is key. If the federal reserve was not able to open some databases that were created in prior versions of the software I was a part of, countries would have gone under for a short amount of time. You would not be able to withdraw money from an ATM or your insurance company would not have any records of your coverage or treatments. SONAR is nowhere near that critical in nature to most.  ;)
 
Maybe my expectation for a software to be backwards compatible is not warranted with SONAR, but I certainly expect that if SONAR has associations with WRK files that it would appropriately be able to import them without issues. Fortunately my older projects were CWP files and work for the most part. Any abnormal behavior is not expected. If it was, I am sure people would be preparing for it. I know I certainly would have.
My biggest frustrations are trying to do the simplest of things that should and have worked prior, but no longer work that way for one reason or another.
 
I tried to import these project files to a new X3 project. The envelopes did not translate well and that frustrated me even more. I may have to go to 8.5 and bounce all clips then export them as broadcast wave files and then import them to a new project. I know how to do all that, it is just that I hate having to because a current version of the software does not tolerate older projects, if that is even the case here.
 
I appreciate your concern for the product and trying to understand what I am doing. I believe you are truly trying to grasp the issue. Me too. I just wish I knew what it could be. I will definitely be on the horn tomorrow with TS and likely sending them my project.

FWIW, I have opened wrk files from all the way back to 1999 in the X versions. The first thing I do is a "Save As" with the X version in the name. I have done that to make sure the project file is written to the "current" X-version standard (since it has evolved over time). After that point, I have not encountered issues with the project file (but loses plugs often, LOL). It made me curious when you said "I tried to import these project files to a new X3 project."
 
Have you simply opened the old projects, saved them as a cwp with a new name, and then worked from there? I am not trying to be confrontational, but am trying to understand your work flow.
 
Edit: I did not even own SONAR until ~2004, so these wrk files are either from "Guitar Tracks" or "Home Studio"

mettelus
 It made me curious when you said "I tried to import these project files to a new X3 project."
 
Have you simply opened the old projects, saved them as a cwp with a new name, and then worked from there? I am not trying to be confrontational, but am trying to understand your work flow.

Yes, that is how I do it. I do a save as and rename the project with the current date and such with the newer versions of SONAR.
 
No confrontation at all. :)

Guitarmech111
In the mainframe software world, which I have been a part of for over 30 years, backwards compatibility is key. If the federal reserve was not able to open some databases that were created in prior versions of the software I was a part of, countries would have gone under for a short amount of time. You would not be able to withdraw money from an ATM or your insurance company would not have any records of your coverage or treatments. SONAR is nowhere near that critical in nature to most.  ;)

You've hit the nail on the head: the closer something is to consumer software, the more likely it will be ephemeral. Apple vs. Microsoft is a good example. Microsoft is much more concerned about backward compatibility because it's used so much in business; Apple not as much. I have much more Apple OS roadkill than Microsoft OS roadkill.
 
But the backward compatibility thing is an issue, too. When you hear news stories about the IRS or air traffic controllers or NASA being hobbled by old technology, it's because they're locked into it. I can't imagine what it would take to start over at, for example, the IRS from scratch.
 
So, I gave up years ago and just assumed that anything I did would be useless in a few years unless I went out of my way to insure that didn't happen; that required not only vigilant backup, but vigilant format conversion. As just one example, I sure bet on the wrong horse with WMA and ATRAC...

and yet another crash to desktop deleting tracks...

No crash for me today, in a whole day of vocal and piano recording and editing! Although I did get one phasing track when I Melodyned a clip. Consistently happened until I exited and reopened Sonar.