a great advantage is imo that if you want to replace eg GPO with VSL you do not need to re-edit all the keayswitches (if you have configuration files for both libs. And for sure it will be only a matter of time since all the leading libs provide configuration files for this technology)

cheers, drjee

I must say, considering the number of years keyswitched articulations have been around, it is hard to believe Steinberg beat Cake to the punch on this. I do not use Cubase so I can't swear to it's functionality, but here is why Sonar needs a feature similar to this.

Consider a violin passage that needs to start in legato, go to tremolo, then perhaps detache. If the vehicle for that is a multi-instrument where each articulation is called up by a program change you are golden. Sonar has program change searchback and will "remember" what articulation is currently expected (it looks back into the even list to find the most previous command and invokes it just as you hit play, from wherever you are at in the score).

But if the vehicle for that is keyswitching, then, if you stop when the instrument was playing tremolo, then move your cursor to somewhere in the middle of the legato passage and hit play, you will be gritting your teeth as you hear your lovely legato coming out in tremolo... because Cake doesn't searchback to keyswitches because it doesn't know that they aren't legitimate note events.

That is the crux of the issue... developers used a crutch for program changes (for legitimate real-time performance needs) and circumvented functionality that had been designed to handle program changes in design-time... without a corresponding accommodation from sequencer manufacturers to allow keyswitching to somehow have searchback behavior. What it appears Cubase has done is to create a mapping applet that lets the user define articulation maps that associate specific articulations with specific keyswitch notes, much the way you can currently define instrument maps, or drum maps, now in Sonar.

I could really really use this feature (assuming it would searchback like program changes do). It's a royal pain in the ass to be constantly looking at my cheat sheets to find the appropriate keyswitch for the current instrument I'm working with (keyswitches are all over the place and non-standard, as they have to be, because of the different playable note ranges of various instruments.

I was recently thinking about solving the problem with KSP scripting (Kontakt 3) but program changes aren't handled events, so no go there. If they were you could add a script to an instrument that intercepted a program change and called a note event based on a lookup table.

For the first time in my muscial life the idea of looking at another sequencer has occurred to me... frankly it's appalling to my mind, but there it is.

GPO, which I own, does not have it, since it's a host feature and GPO is no host.

True as far as it goes. You are neglecting the point that it will have no effect to libraries that are not coded for it. This will limit it to Steinberg made libraries. Although it has nice touches it still is no different to other similar libraries that have various articulations and use standard MIDI methods to access them.

Well, any keyswitched sample library "works the same way", but the point is you can't tell which articulation you've chosen by looking at Sonar's piano roll. The little extra text labels are really nice. Also, the fact that you can look at a notation window and use traditional articulation markings...and the appropriate keyswitch message is routed automatically to the correct key is a nce feature.

Sure you can by one listening and two looking at what is placed in the area for switching articulations. Its not rocket science.

ORIGINAL: jsaras
Well, any keyswitched sample library "works the same way", but the point is you can't tell which articulation you've chosen by looking at Sonar's piano roll. The little extra text labels are really nice. Also, the fact that you can look at a notation window and use traditional articulation markings...and the appropriate keyswitch message is routed automatically to the correct key is a nce feature.

Absolutely. I just watched the video, and I'm actually impressed. It's probably the first time Steinberg has implemented something in one of their hosts that I wish SONAR had as well.

ORIGINAL: stlum
I must say, considering the number of years keyswitched articulations have been around, it is hard to believe Steinberg beat Cake to the punch on this. I do not use Cubase so I can't swear to it's functionality, but here is why Sonar needs a feature similar to this.

Consider a violin passage that needs to start in legato, go to tremolo, then perhaps detache. If the vehicle for that is a multi-instrument where each articulation is called up by a program change you are golden. Sonar has program change searchback and will "remember" what articulation is currently expected (it looks back into the even list to find the most previous command and invokes it just as you hit play, from wherever you are at in the score).

But if the vehicle for that is keyswitching, then, if you stop when the instrument was playing tremolo, then move your cursor to somewhere in the middle of the legato passage and hit play, you will be gritting your teeth as you hear your lovely legato coming out in tremolo... because Cake doesn't searchback to keyswitches because it doesn't know that they aren't legitimate note events.

Excellent example. Well stated.

That is the crux of the issue... developers used a crutch for program changes (for legitimate real-time performance needs) and circumvented functionality that had been designed to handle program changes in design-time... without a corresponding accommodation from sequencer manufacturers to allow keyswitching to somehow have searchback behavior. What it appears Cubase has done is to create a mapping applet that lets the user define articulation maps that associate specific articulations with specific keyswitch notes, much the way you can currently define instrument maps, or drum maps, now in Sonar.

Yes, yes, yes. It's not like the sequencer manufacturers have deliberately ignored the issue; nor is it that the library manufacturers have tried to make things difficult for us. It's just the way things naturally evolved over a period of time. But what Steinberg has done with their VST Expression implementation appears to be intuitive, convenient, and elegant.

ORIGINAL: John
You are neglecting the point that it will have no effect to libraries that are not coded for it. This will limit it to Steinberg made libraries.

It's not the HAL library that we're discussing, it's the implementation of VST Expression events in Cubase's version of a piano roll. And it will be effective for any library, from any manufacturer, that supports the triggering of different types of articulations for a given sample (keyswitching, mod wheel, etc.). The user can define expression maps for whatever library they're using - not just Steinberg libraries.

ORIGINAL: John

Well, any keyswitched sample library "works the same way", but the point is you can't tell which articulation you've chosen by looking at Sonar's piano roll. The little extra text labels are really nice. Also, the fact that you can look at a notation window and use traditional articulation markings...and the appropriate keyswitch message is routed automatically to the correct key is a nce feature.

Sure you can by one listening and two looking at what is placed in the area for switching articulations. Its not rocket science.

It's not a question of rocket science - it's a question of how tedious the current way of doing it is, especially with keyswitching. Seeing the VST Expression implementation makes it obvious how time-consuming traditional keyswitch editing is by comparison. Again, this is not to say that SONAR is "broken" - just that Steinberg has come up with an incredibly impressive, elegant, and intuitive solution to saving time and effort when editing MIDI scores for advanced sample libraries; and as noted above, it's a bit surprising (and perhaps disappointing) that the Cakewalk folks didn't get there first. Hats off to Steinberg on this one. Has anybody put in a Cakewalk feature request for this yet?

I;m hoping VST expression is added to sonar 9 and detect video cuts.

Is there anyone who might be able to help me with a few pyro audio questions?

+1 Please add VST Expression!

+1 Please add VSt Expression and a articulations controller lane in piano roll similar to Cubase, this will perfect to control the keyswitches in kontakt libraries.