Sanderxpander
I hate to be so anal about it but to settle the argument;

pro·fes·sion·al [pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2.
of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3.
appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4.
engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5.
following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.

 
Well I didn't stand on the corner of the street for too long ;)
 

Sanderxpander
Or Wavelab, or Sequoia/Samplitude.
I really don't see ProTools as a mastering app. Perhaps only because it's standard and you do need something to play a stereo track and host plugins.

Or Sound Forge or Adobe Audition...Pro Tools is not a very good mastering program, and I don't think anyone at Avid claims that's a mastering program. (FWIW I actually use Sonar for several mastering functions that digital audio editors typically can't do, like automation.)

Sanderxpander
I hate to be so anal about it but to settle the argument;

pro·fes·sion·al [pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2.
of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3.
appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4.
engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5.
following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.

Sorry all that is a corruption of what a profession or professional is. It is one that professes. One that has letters. How you decide if someone is a professional is why they are hired. Anyone that is hired for there lettered knowledge is a professional. Everyone else is in a trade. That includes musicians. Skills do not make a professional. A typist has skills but is not and never will be a professional. Basically it is if they are asked for advice.  Its their advice that makes a professional. A teacher a doctor a lawyer are professionals. Athletes are in either an advocation or a trade.  Priests are in an advocation. So are nuns.
 
What you list is the popular view and it is useless as a determination. Its saying anyone that is hired is a professional. We know that is untrue. That would make an unskilled laborer the same as a professor of history, equally professional. 

Hmm. I think you'd struggle to find a dictionary that agrees with you on that.

John

Sanderxpander
I hate to be so anal about it but to settle the argument;

pro·fes·sion·al [pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2.
of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3.
appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4.
engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5.
following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.

Sorry all that is a corruption of what a profession or professional is. It is one that professes. One that has letters. How you decide if someone is a professional is why they are hired. Anyone that is hired for there lettered knowledge is a professional. Everyone else is in a trade. That includes musicians. Skills do not make a professional. A typist has skills but is not and never will be a professional. Basically it is if they are asked for advice.  Its their advice that makes a professional. A teacher a doctor a lawyer are professionals. Athletes are in either an advocation or a trade.  Priests are in an advocation. So are nuns.
 
What you list is the popular view and it is useless as a determination. Its saying anyone that is hired is a professional. We know that is untrue. That would make an unskilled laborer the same as a professor of history, equally professional. 

 
What? A typist who types correctly, and consistently over time, in some manner of Standard (lingo, method, resolve) at some speed...becomes a professional typist....and Piano Player who studies music theory, employs the methods and laws correctly always...and plays and makes music becomes a musician, and over time, with no error found in that performance or performances done...is granted status of Professional Pianist....and with that knowledge of those trades under their belts, can pass on the knowledge to others...as teachers.
 
So I am not sure how a professional becomes one, if it is impossible to be one...by learning and persisting in perfecting that ...in regards to Professional being what they claim that word to be in terms of dictionary meaning..it is one who fully and confidently can do the trade of choice correctly and always done so, over every employment.
 
Now Fine Arts theory and mastery ~ PT and Avid, Cubase, Roland, and other name brands..ect... surely helped bring the industry to what it may be, and could be, and perhaps should be...but Like some have said, Avid closed their eyes, and made things exclusive to their methods to lock down the users to high costs, and problematic change....and sometimes closing the door on other ideas that may bare riper fruit...or better methods...or more stable platforms...to make a standard standard always a standard used..and measure...and fare...then the laws, and teaching can begin once mastered in those methods, tools and ideals which makes that one or many Professionals in terms of.
 
If standards are always changing, and things with in that state are also in a state of change, No one can claim to be Professional under that muse, as that statement would be false, as the known standards for that under Industry has not yet been defined as such...in standards used, or to be used, or in line to change for what can be....SO the teacher has to be taught...which makes that state weak in terms of his or her or the standard change to non professional, because there is always something lacking Perfection, or knowledge of...a standard method...if it has not reached its perfection, and stands as such always....it is not standard in so much as to say, it is used, but not always....and as this industry needs change to fuel its Fat cow method...change has to occur....and that is what is now being imposed...I see 4k video, needs a partner in audio fidelity....TV, Space technologies/ to broadcasting...it all has to change, to accommodate the new...and it is big business...it has nothing to do with standards or industry really, that is the guise they use to make the cow fatter,and the masses continue to buy the new technologies....and we feed which cow we chose to feed..and which camp we chose to chose...the industry that holds the most versatile tools, and employs many types, to suite many needs...will gain more cliental....and that is a fact of Professional methods one could use to gain those hard to find feeders, and accolades in becoming Professional in method and form.
 
So in some regard, I own part of Avid's claims...and from one point in time, it did not work, I bought their devices for M Power, and setup a nice PC...which their techs could not tame under windows xp or 7...I bought the PT 9 with claims it worked with all audio devices, also had issues, and soon after I bought 9, they released 10 for more cash grabbing...which I did not buy into because I saw 64bit OSes being more the go to Platform method of practice and practical direction for future proofing the Studio...As I already know about change, one must ready for it...that things change always is now historical noted truth...and accept it as such, and prepare for it....to buy in when I feel the time is right (more perfected in platform and function stability to do so) or enough people claim it is solid enough a platform to engage in...cause I was there with Atari, PC win 95...and that was a nightmare...but I tried...I was there with win 95 a,b,c and Cubase..with the implementation of usb 1.1...and that was not so workable for me...I was there for win 98, se, Xp, sp1....and now win 7 64bit and 32 bit, and a hole host of DAWs to play with...I like Sony products, but they are falling behind..perhaps following the industry standard?...perhaps only to make sure the platform is stable before coding for it?...could be a means to save money?
 
Any way...All those wonderful toys...seem to work some what when one complies to certain rules of method and instructions to make it work.....follow the method, and it should work...if it does not work...well that is where the Murphy of my understanding becomes a professional recker of method....and a tool should be fabricated for that professional of mayham.
 
That said, in that, the professional methods used to make standards, or laws, or coded libraries, to make the software work with in a said environment "OS" needs it to be stable...and if it is in state of flux, no words can tell of it's merits as functioning in such a state of non perfection, as this becomes a unknown factor for Murphy to play on.
And this has to stop...I believe.
So Microsoft or someone else..Linux?...or Beos?...I have no clue who will, or when...but they will develop a OS Just for the Music Industry...So more Professional outcomes prevail with that method of accolades achieved rightfully in Standards met through solid methods. laws and priciples ,STANDARDS, which continue to be made for all by all who use the methods of fine arts and employ them properly, over many platforms that work, to the highest degree of..and even pushing new boundries.
 
SO someone who knows how to use all the tools, and then some, and even makes his own tools for those uncertain Problems of Murphy, which seem to be incorporated in,... so more cow feeding can be gained...should be accounted as more Professionals see the light, than the ones stuck in a rut trying to change standards to continue to sell a Dog to the cow feeders, and hold court with out vision of change now coming upon them to catch up to...should not hold court there in.
 
Which DAW is better?...PT VS SONAR?....I SAY they both have their merits and possibly their own Bugs...as being noted continually through out time with all DAWs and PC or MAC or other computer systems, that bases something on a untrue statement somewhere.....in the end, it will not work...and so some one has to correct that error or lie to make it stable...not build on it./,,,but I guess that is also a form of professional method that can be rewarding for a short period of time...if one wants to be futile in terms of supporting untruths and un-standards to gain wealth...soon the support or camps under it's wing, tend to fly elsewhere for more solid Performance, for less cost....as Truth should bring Perfection...Lies only bring ruin.
 
SO let the yes mean yes, and the no mean no..a word made known to mean what it says, stays that way.
 
 
And so the Question is posed..PT VS SONAR?...with the above statements made by me, I see a unstable future to pass through coming, until some genius comes up with a more robust answer to Computer Operational devices with OSes.
Or the ones now in play, solidify and correct the errors in the hardware, chipsets, code, firmware, or libraries being used in those computers....So the industry can flourish better for all who try taking up the DAW experience...which ever one, or as many, they chose to use, as long as they stay in that standard of truth circle, and provide a working product as claimed.....and there is nothing right or wrong with that...Yep... I bought PT 11, and then had to update it twice to make it work.
Reading in on the Avid forms, a lot of older hardware is being dropped...and plugs...and I guess a new direction is being formulated by Avid, and now Apple...will the industry be able to hold on while they make amendments to their code and product line, and certain industry methods of choice in PC or Mac?...or will someone else move in with a better product and support platform?...or has that already been happening?...is the industry really in charge of this industry, or is Avid?
 
Well...You play, you pay...you learn, you excel in knowledge.,,,open your eyes to see the lies and truths....perhaps knowledge in this helps one chose?...unless truth is a lie, and lies are truths...perhaps something to consider if standards are not.
 
 
 

John T
Hmm. I think you'd struggle to find a dictionary that agrees with you on that.

I'm sure you're right John but it really doesn't matter what a dictionary will say. To get a full understanding of the word you may have to study it. Funny I just did look it up in the American Heritage Dictionary is very close to how I defined it.  
 
 

It's really not: http://ahdictionary.com/w...ch.html?q=professional

This thread has took some odd turns. I've no idea what Les is on about either. I'm not sure he knows come to that.

What is it anyone says they know?....how is it proven?...where is the standard to reduce chaos?...what measure of rule is being employed..or should be used to gauge?...
 
If one defines: a work station a work station...is it  one that does many things?...or one thing?.
 
So Industry...which industry?...there are many...If we talk about the Fine Arts...it comes to be, a more robust status....which includes word, visual, auditory, and thought or logics....to some degree of  measure which should conform to a method that all can follow, and find resolve with...to help create their Muse..or Art.
 
Now we can use many means...But the computer seems to be moving in to all realities of that, as a platform....it is not the only platform...but it is being widely accepted as something that can be used as a tool to make Art, and communication, and or sciences...truths and lies aside.....
 
What I believe is, if something has a error in it....it is not supposed to be used as a standard, because it creates error or unstable or illogics to arise.
 
it is with anything...if truth prevails in something, it is lasting, it needs no change, it is perfect.
 
So how can one base a platform on something in complete flux? or change as one may account is happening?
 
Which Program is best suited for this?....and if this is the way things are going to be, and continue to be, then why chose any...just chose them all.
 
And that solves the problem of which one vs the other...use them both, try them out, take the plunge, believe nothing told, make your own choices..and live with them.
 
Don't let Avid dictate, or the industry....the People are the industry!...we make the economy work...we chose or we follow, or we make...and in terms of being Professional...I believe it means to be perfect at what it is you employ yourself in....and using certain Methods of Logics , and truths...one can follow in that do not change "Like Music theory" or "Math"...if we follow...what ever measure is truthful...and stays that way....that is the one to follow.
As it will always produce for you and all who do.
 
If error or bad math, or logics are used...change has to occur....cause it will be faulty.
And perhaps that is why some if not all DAW software has been buggy in some regards with some of their codex.
 
Is it the os?, is it the hardware?...is it dependant on the mix of those things?....I see why Avid has made their own hardware...but even those using it, have had issues...and paid for support to try to fix...and stung along waiting for that, while other Platforms seem to creep forward past them.
 
So is the industry being ****ed by Avid?...or the people moving past that hurdle?
 
Is it fare to come into a forum...and put up such a post?...surely it will bring all kinds of debate.
 
What I am trying to resolve are...What is the industry?..and what are standards, and what does Professional mean?
for those using these words,terms, and claims...
 
If one defines them as none definable or in ignorance to what has been defined already...as a standard to avoid confusion...then some may see my point.
 
But if confusion is with me...and it is, and with you others...and perhaps that is also?....then no one can say they understand...which could be a truth here in.
 
And I like truth...cause truth does not need to change...it is always true...it is never untrue...and those who seek it, ...want it.
 
And that is with everything..from spoken words of promise, to words of meaning....it all has to have defined states to make logical choices.
 
Some times the only way to learn is to try....find out...take the chance...then you will know...what is truth about their claims...or the other being better...or them being alike, or different but doing the same things, or one more over the other.
 
I have not gotten to that state yet with either.
 
So I am sitting on a fence...watching the Cow, sheep, goats, dogs, chickens, and what is being fed to them...as truths and lies reveal themselves over time....
 
Am I saving money?...nope!...but I am having fun learning the curve balls thrown at me, to solve for, and using other things while the industry standard makes its change....and I am getting work done by what ever works at that particular time of need...cause I have most of them in house...settling where the error is, that causes bugs to arise with many DAWs, perhaps is with my choices used to put them and run them with?...so, I made another step to resolve that variable...and bought a Mac...so I can see what is on the other side of zero...and I also Bought new PC parts, and that seems to be working way better , than the older parts employed that were claimed to work with.
 
So in part hardware is part to blame, also the OS is part to blame, and user is part to blame for taking that plunge to early....I should have waited longer...As it is again in a state of flux.
 
Now how can anyone claim to be Professional skilled in something that has not yet been defined?
No matter the meaning of its truth...one cannot be perfectly trained in anything computer based in terms of industry standards...cause there are no standards that hold as such Yet!
 
And that is a perfect truth....I hope I explain myself more in this one...cause sure as rain Chaos is coming again to the computer industry with changes.
and that means more gear sales, more devices on the garbage pile, more lost income, and more wasted money!
 
So...that is what unstandard standards bring when they change the standards always, as noted now coming again.
Windows 8.1...and soon that will change...and then a new cpu...so platform change...and video cards to support higher resolutions, and monitors, and of course new ports, cables, and such...always a fluxing chaos of change...is it standard...well yes...and so what truth will come of something that constantly changes...becomes un-standard eventually...and so Avid now have to change along with change...SO while they are doing it, and Apple are also...nothing is stable...nothing holds truth about standard anything!....and there is my point again made known.
 
If you want to play along...chose both..or many...do not confine yourselves to one or the other....and find out.
 
You gain something from the experience!
 
I know I have!
 
 
But some can be lead to the truth...some can not...so try to find it on your own....You will eventually see it...once that is done, you then have to believe in it...and then, you can say I know it is truth.
 
That is the game...knowing!....if words are used by X, and claim things that were true once, but slowly lost that truth because the industry is in flux....then did they ever really gain a standard to begin with?....No!
 
And as I like to believe, Truth never changes...it always remains as such...it is a method for perfection...without truth, there is no perfection...if lies or error is incorporated into something, or variables or Flux in % that do not hold true for all things made...then there will be Issues, and Murphy will pounce on that.
As noted in all camps...why?...because that is how it works....truth.
error is in the machine....where?...well depends how deep you want to look...or how far you stand away from it to see it.
 
Is it getting better?...Perhaps...only time will tell...and as time passes, take note of what changes next!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

A dictionary merely shows what the established meanings of a word within a language are. Sometimes it will indicate what the meaning used to be. You can call it a corruption and provide your "true" meaning but that's useless for communication.

a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: [b. Conforming to the standards of a profession: [2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: [3. Performed by persons receiving pay: [4. Having or showing great skill; expert: [n.1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: [3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.
 
 
I am taking B as my standard point of interest, but all of them have to conform from a-z to the models of each other.
 
And so Standards that change constantly have no base to call them selves standard...if they change...and they do constantly.
 
If error is in the codex...then issues will arise with product out...Yes? or No?...and time wasted is money burnt?...yes? no?.
 
If something is basing itself on something of flux and or error or non perfect states...then error will result in its failure eventually for something more perfect to take it's place...Yes ? no?...should something that is in such a state be made as a Standard?....Yes? No?....these are what I base my thought processes on.
 
Now Avid claim something that is not to my mind standard in any means if it is computer based...nor can any other software make that claim...as being some form of standard, if it is always being changed.
And it cannot always conform to stable states of being....and who uses a tool /computer/os/drivers or codex..that does not perform admirably 100% to gain a state of perfection in being in use, to say One has that tool that makes their profession Professional?
 
Being Perfect at ones muse or profession, makes Professional states of that one who does follow the method B when in line with a STANDARD...now as I made clear, that has yet to be defined in the industry...So, there are no professionals available at this time line..who can say anything in regards to which is better...cause there are no experts or professional working perfect camps to boast this...at this time, or any time in the near future....Because computers have not arrived at any standard base line in all terms....there is no one perfect state,(it is getting closer to it some times, and other times it is changing, and different parts have to make amends) it is all in a state of flux...and with that truth, ...B fails in this regard!...and so all others do not conform to each other in that definition ...and so Professional  states in computer land and DAWs that use such a platform with OS of choice...can never be a Professional Profession under those terms, as the base line computer/os/devices or hardware/software are not perfected Yet!= bugs!
 
 
So you can post all kinds of dictionaries...You know what I mean...and in posting that one, You solidified my Point more.
 
 
Thanks