• SONAR
  • Latency problems, can't trace the cause
2014/02/02 17:58:44
Ken77
Hello everyone, this is my first time posting: I have been having a lot of problems with latency, to the point that I rarely can record or even play back for that matter. I bought a new Casio PX850 Digital Piano with 256 voices of polyphony.  I cannot record with it, and believe that latency is causing this keyboard to play poorly.  As a standalone playing through its own speakers, it's fine. When played through a DAW,  the action changes drastically and the sound is too soft to record.
 
Sonar X3 is my main DAW and is the one that cracks and pops the most. I also have tried Cubase 5, the Cubase 7 trial, and Abelton Live 9 among others.  Same issues, all of them. I've spent weeks trying to solve this problem and have used LatencyMon that someone mentioned on another thread, it gave me suggestions on the possible causes. Seems like I fix one issue and another immediately comes up.
 
Here's what I'm working with:
 
Operating System/Specs:
  • Win 7 64 bit Ultimate
  • ASIO4all driver
  • Intel i7 3930 K processor 3.2 GHz  
  • MOBO: ASUS P9X79 PRO LGA 2011 Intel X79 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel
  • 5-Seagate Barracuda HDD SATA 6 Gb/s NCQ 64MB Cache 7200 RPM; 3.5- 11TB total.
  • Nexus Power Supply RX8500 850 watts
  • Noctua NHU9B Se2 dual heatsink
  • 32 Gb of Ram Corsair Vengeance (4x8GB) DDR3 1600 MHz  (CMZ32GX3M4X1600C10) 
  • Graphics card: ASUS 210 Silent (EN210 SILENT/DI/1GD3/V2 (LP) 
 
Over the past weeks I've made multiple tweaks including: 
  • Disabled USB Power Management
  • Enabled Write Cache and Advanced Performance for hard drives
  • Changed Processor Scheduling
  • Adjusted Power Options
  • Disabled Sound Exclusive Mode
  • Checked for IRQ conflicts 
  • Disabled Visual effects
  • Disabled anti-virus 
  • Disabled some Windows servicesAnti Virus scan
  • Updated Bios, chipset and all drivers.
  • Disabled c3, c6, etc.
  • EIST disabled. 
 
This weekend I did this:
  • Reformatted the drive and started over with Windows 8.1 – I only installed the bare minimum applications for testing purposes. 
  • Installed all the latest drivers for all my hardware and updated Widows 8.1.
  • Reformatted again and installed Windows 7 Ultimate with only the driver for the LAN so I could access the Internet; latency problems continue but for different reasons than the Windows 8.1 setup. 
 
Still popping and the piano plays like there's a noticeable delay from the time I hit a key until the sound actually comes out the speakers. Sometimes it works for 10 minutes then everything goes downhill. Thanks in advance for any tips.  
2014/02/02 18:20:46
robert_e_bone
OK - go into Sonar Edit>Preferences>Driver Settings and post back with your reported latency values.
 
Input Latency
Output Latency
Total Roundtrip Latency
 
I will save my ASIO4ALL speech for after we see where your above values are currently being reported at.
 
Bob Bone
 
2014/02/02 19:52:36
dwardzala
What is your sound card/audio interface?
2014/02/03 08:49:25
Ken77
OK, here are the latency values:
 
Input: 9.8ms
Output: 9.8ms
Total Roundtrip: 19.6
 
I'm using Realtek Hi Definition Audio and Nvidia High Definition Audio. (Nvidia is disabled.) I don't have a physical sound card/audio interface. Somebody told me that wasn't needed as I'm playing softsynths. Sounds like some of you might be about to disagree with this; if that's the core of the problem here, which audio interface would you recommend?
 
By the way I edited the original post, the lists had somehow become paragraphs.
2014/02/03 10:33:27
lawp
Try not playing through the daw and just record the "stand alone" audio?
2014/02/03 12:04:09
bitflipper
I bought a new Casio PX850 Digital Piano with 256 voices of polyphony.

Somebody told me that wasn't needed as I'm playing softsynths.

These two statements are contradictory. Are you using the Casio as a MIDI controller only, or are you using it as an audio source? IOW, are recording a hardware synth or soft synths? They're two different sets of potential problems and two different sets of solutions.
 
If you're recording the Casio's audio, that's easily do-able with your RealTek interface. 
 
 
2014/02/03 13:33:52
robert_e_bone
Ken77
OK, here are the latency values: Input: 9.8msOutput: 9.8msTotal Roundtrip: 19.6 I'm using Realtek Hi Definition Audio and Nvidia High Definition Audio. (Nvidia is disabled.) I don't have a physical sound card/audio interface. Somebody told me that wasn't needed as I'm playing softsynths. Sounds like some of you might be about to disagree with this; if that's the core of the problem here, which audio interface would you recommend? By the way I edited the original post, the lists had somehow become paragraphs.

Thanks for posting the values.  19 ms latency will give you a noticeable lag, if you can adjust the ASIO4ALL settings to use a buffer size of around 128, or otherwise end up with a Total Roundtrip Latency value of around 10 ms, that would be a good goal.
 
ASIO4ALL works for some folks, and causes issues for others.  It is really not going to cut it for the long haul with getting the most out of Sonar, and I recommend you give thought to picking up a dedicated audio interface.
 
A good basic audio interface will run from around $150 usd on up, depending on features and quality.  Folks here can add their recommendations for which ones to look at.
 
There may yet be some adjustments that can at least for the time being reduce your latency issues.
 
I recommend settings starting at:
 
Audio device (or ASIO4ALL): Sample Rate 44.1 k or 48 k, ASIO Buffer Size = 128
 
Sonar: Driver Mode = ASIO, Sample Rate 44.1 k or 48 k, Record Bit-Depth = 24 Bits
 
See if you can get the above settings in play on your system, and give it a shot and post back with the results.  Again, try to end up with the Total Roundtrip Latency at or just below 10 milliseconds.
 
Bob Bone
 
2014/02/03 13:37:10
robert_e_bone
ASIO4ALL will use a tremendous amount of CPU to do analog/digital conversion, which will easily then cause dropouts, crackles, and lag.  
 
A dedicated audio interface will use its on-board circuitry to take that analog/digital 'work' away from the CPU, so that your CPU can do other things.  That will reduce the impact to your system, and you will have far less latency and sound quality issues with a real audio interface.
 
Bob Bone
 
 
2014/02/03 23:20:58
Ken77
Thanks, all, for your input.
 
The Casio is intended to be a MIDI controller only, for recording purposes. For purposes of troubleshooting, assume it's being used as a MIDI controller and soft synths only such as Kontakt 5, Ivory pianos, etc. 
 
I recommend settings starting at:
 Audio device (or ASIO4ALL): Sample Rate 44.1 k or 48 k, ASIO Buffer Size = 128
 Sonar: Driver Mode = ASIO, Sample Rate 44.1 k or 48 k, Record Bit-Depth = 24 Bits

 
With those settings, the roundtrip latency is 13.8, and I just can't get enough volume to record. I have to disable the touch response on the piano completely, which makes it play terribly. It's got very nice weighted action and that's one of the reasons I bought it. Disabling that is a dealbreaker for me. 
 
With buffer size 64, roundtrip latency is 10.9ms and it's much easier to play. I don't have to pound to get volume. It doesn't feel normal yet but it's better than at 128. No popping or clicking but it's still just sluggish. LatencyMon is also griping that NVidia kernel mode driver's highest execution in ms is 27.13, so something is really wrong here. 
 
Worth noting that LatencyMon gives me bad reports even when I have no other applications running besides LatencyMon itself. I assume there is more that needs attention. 
 
I appreciate the explanation of audio interfaces and will be looking into a purchase. Obviously anything that gets the load off the CPU is a good thing!
2014/02/04 04:13:12
Kalle Rantaaho
Ken77
Thanks, all, for your input. The Casio is intended to be a MIDI controller only, for recording purposes. For purposes of troubleshooting, assume it's being used as a MIDI controller and soft synths only such as Kontakt 5,
Ivory pianos, etc.  
I recommend settings starting at:
Audio device (or ASIO4ALL): Sample Rate 44.1 k or 48 k, ASIO Buffer Size = 128
Sonar: Driver Mode = ASIO, Sample Rate 44.1 k or 48 k, Record Bit-Depth = 24 Bits
 
 
With those settings, the roundtrip latency is 13.8, and I just can't get enough volume to record. I have to disable the touch response on the piano completely, which makes it play terribly. It's got very nice weighted action and that's one of the reasons I bought it. Disabling that is a dealbreaker for me.  With buffer size 64, roundtrip latency is 10.9ms and it's much easier to play. I don't have to pound to get volume.


I've never heard that buffer size, bit depth and sample rate could affect the volume in a disturbing degree??!!
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