2014/01/24 00:18:29
vladasyn
We got in to this discussion about the meters. My partner says- the levels must be at -12 db. I said- on what scale? My meters show 0 to -39 db- there is no way I would keep tracks at -12. I have everything close to 0. So I looked in to the meter options and for the recording and playback (right-click on any meter to see it) it has a checkmark set on -42. Other options are -12, -24, -60 and so on. What this setting means? Would anything change if I actually change it from -42 to -24 or -12? Thank you.  
2014/01/24 00:23:47
cowboydan
our meter scale will change. Easier to read.
2014/01/24 06:40:25
soens
Nothing will change except your ability to see the numbers.
 
-90 would be like zooming out so you can see the full range of signal motion.
 
-12 is like zooming in with a magnifying glass making it easier to see when fine tuning a signal.
However, if the signal is very soft you may not even see it at that range.
 
Steve
2014/01/24 11:23:59
bitflipper
vladasyn
My partner says- the levels must be at -12 db. I said- on what scale? My meters show 0 to -39 db- there is no way I would keep tracks at -12. 



Let's not confuse levels with meter scaling. Levels are levels regardless of how they'e displayed in a meter. Scaling just determines the range of levels you can clearly see.
 
Your partner is correct in asserting that levels at -12dB are usually more practical than keeping them up near zero. The scale you choose will depend on the range of levels you need to see. If all your levels are fairly high, as yours are, you'll be able to gauge them more accurately by choosing a higher resolution such as -24dB.
2014/01/25 23:34:38
vladasyn
Thank you for clarification on the meters and explanation. Still I don't see where - 12 db. come to play. Where is it located on the Sonar's meters?
 
It is funny as after all the talk about -12 db. he took a song that I mixed just under -00 on every track and remixed it so that almost every track except Master became in red clipping. Also it does not affect sound quality that much. I was wondering- do we have to have all levels on each track under zero or it ok to let some go above -00 long as Master lever is below -00? Thank you.
2014/01/26 06:57:31
soens
If I understand you correctly, see this post: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2976637.
 
2014/01/26 09:27:58
mudgel
Vladasyn:
I get the impression you don't quite understand levels. If you do then just ignore my post otherwise:
An illustration to help you.

Imagine that you have a bucket. When it's completely full that represents 0 or unity gain on your master fader.

You cannot add more into the bucket than full, the excess spills over. In audio terms we call that clipping.

Each track of you multi track recording is represented by a marble.

Depending on their size, you can only fit in so many till the bucket is full.

The bigger the marbles the less marbles it will take to fill the bucket.

The marble represents a track or channel in your mix. The size of the marble corresponds to the level of each channel. If you had a really large marble you could fill the bucket with just one marble. That is, if you had a track showing unity gain or 0db on the meters, you could only have one track feeding the master bus at that level. Alternatively if you had many smaller marbles, that is, tracks with lower levels it will take many more to fill the bucket, that is, load the master bus with enough signal to reach 0db.

Do an experiment. Create a project. Start with a single track set at -12db. Now clone that track several times. Leave the master fader set to 0db or unity gain. Each time you add a track, take note how your master bus level rises. Hope that helps.
2014/01/26 09:48:11
BJN
The -12 is useful for tracking hot.. It expands the range at the top. Best see for yourself.
If it clips at any scale it'll clip in all. Level still needs to be set right. but at -12 you can see more.
 
On the remix what is occurring without a doubt is the bit depth at 32bit floating point you can push the levels and you won't hear any clipping unless it clips the 32bit float or you render the 32bit float to 16 bit or even 24bit.
 
It is handy for cue mixes and pushing levels without distortion,
 
but even on mixdown don't be fooled it'l clip as it is rendered.
Just keep the levels from clipping anywhere.
2014/01/26 09:49:59
bitflipper
vladasyn
It is funny as after all the talk about -12 db. he took a song that I mixed just under -00 on every track and remixed it so that almost every track except Master became in red clipping. Also it does not affect sound quality that much. I was wondering- do we have to have all levels on each track under zero or it ok to let some go above -00 long as Master lever is below -00? Thank you.



Correct, there'll be very little impact on sound quality, even if there's red all over the place. That's because inside the DAW you're working with floating-point data that has no hard upper limit. As long as the final output to your interface is out of the red, you'll hear no degradation.
 
The potential complications are going to happen at that final stage, where you'll have no choice but to turn everything down in order to apply EQ, compression and limiting to the full mix. It's just easier if the tracks are already at lower levels. 
 
2014/01/26 11:47:16
stevec
It may also be worth noting that not all plugins will respond well to overs, even if the audio engine is OK with it.  Another reason for maintaining reasonable levels; aka, good gain staging, throughout the project.
 
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