Can I ask... how does the "Gain" knob play into all this level setting?
 
In real life a mixer's Gain/Trim knob at the top regulates the incoming signal to that channel and affects the dB level the signal is recorded at.
 
I don't see this happen in Sonar. But it will affect the track's level after a recording has been made, which makes me think of it as a secondary fader rather than an actual input control.
 
I don't see much in the Help doc about it so I'm a little confused.... OK, a lot confused.
 
Steve

Check out the signal flow diagram to see where the track input gain adjustment affects the signal

I actually printed that one out some time ago. It confirms my thought, and my experience, that the actual input signal comes in after the "Gain" knob rendering it unusable for the purpose of regulating the incoming signal, as it does on a real mixer.
 

 
I'm not so sure that the chart is 100% accurate, however. At least it's confusing on many fronts.
 
1st, it shows the recorded clip going through it's envelopes and the FX bin before going through the "Gain" knob. Then it goes back through the FX bin?
 
2nd, it seems Sonar is either using the recorded clip as the input source, or the "Gain" knob is doubling up as a 2nd output fader.
 
Either way, once the signal has been recorded there is no way to regulate it's "input" level. If your clip was recorded too hot (in the red), the "Gain" knob isn't going to fix that for you... or will it?
 
3rd, the chart shows 2 playback meters. One pre-fader and one post-fader. Huh??
 
4th, the "Pan" knob comes after the fader. But in the CV, and in real life mixers, it's before the fader.
 
5th, there's a switch between the FX Bin and ProChannel leading me to believe only one or the other can be used, when you can actually use both.
 
I see the Bus "Gain" knob behaves as it should.
 
In the end it appears that the signal flow is not the same as it would be in a real life hardware setup. Right?
 
Accuracy is the key to understanding. I'm only asking because I'm confused.
 
Thanks

To your first point: The audio is affected by the envelopes and effects on the clip. After that, you can adjust the gain of the clip's level. The track itself also has envelopes and an FX bin.
 
To your second point: If the clip was recorded too hot and is distorted, and the distortion is in the recording because it came from your audio interface, the gain knob won't fix that. It can lower the levels if the audio was recorded too hot and you want to level out all of your tracks.
 
Not sure about the rest or your questions...
 
Regards,
Dan
 

Yes that diagram needs some work before it's properly useful

lawp
Yes that diagram needs some work before it's properly useful

I dunno, I think it gets the job done... just needs a little sprucing up to be fully X3 compliant.  
 
 
I'll take a stab at it...

1st, it shows the recorded clip going through it's envelopes and the FX bin before going through the "Gain" knob. Then it goes back through the FX bin?
- As Dan mentioned, Clip FX and Clip envelopes (along with fades, Region FX, etc) are applied before the audio reaches the track controls, and then the track controls (including FX and envelopes) are applied... to all clips.  

2nd, it seems Sonar is either using the recorded clip as the input source, or the "Gain" knob is doubling up as a 2nd output fader.
Either way, once the signal has been recorded there is no way to regulate it's "input" level. If your clip was recorded too hot (in the red), the "Gain" knob isn't going to fix that for you... or will it?
- The Gain knob exists in software so it comes after your interface's AD conversion.  That's why the live input comes after Gain, but an existing clip comes before - that audio is already in the digital domain.  Otherwise latency would apply to gain as it does to live FX, and it still wouldn't eliminate overs since it's post-AD. 

3rd, the chart shows 2 playback meters. One pre-fader and one post-fader. Huh??
- Picture adding a compresser to the Clip FX Bin with a 10:1 ratio and makeup gain cranked.  And on top of that, you've boosted the Gain knob by +3.  Because it's so loud you then turn down the fader.  In this case the pre-fader meter could be much higher than the post-fader meter. 

4th, the "Pan" knob comes after the fader. But in the CV, and in real life mixers, it's before the fader.
- Huh, not sure about that one.  I wonder if there's an audible difference either way?

5th, there's a switch between the FX Bin and ProChannel leading me to believe only one or the other can be used, when you can actually use both.
- I'm guessing that's the On/Off switch, running in parallel with the FX Bin (either Pre or Post).  With the PC off the FX bin is still active.

I see the Bus "Gain" knob behaves as it should.
- I think that's because it never receives live input, only what the track(s) sends it, so it's essentially a gain knob for the summed track output.  The bus fader is what other busses (or mains) receive, sort of like the track > bus relationship. 
 
I hope it got this all right.   
 

bitflipper

vladasyn
My partner says- the levels must be at -12 db. I said- on what scale? My meters show 0 to -39 db- there is no way I would keep tracks at -12. 

Let's not confuse levels with meter scaling. Levels are levels regardless of how they'e displayed in a meter. Scaling just determines the range of levels you can clearly see.
 
Your partner is correct in asserting that levels at -12dB are usually more practical than keeping them up near zero. The scale you choose will depend on the range of levels you need to see. If all your levels are fairly high, as yours are, you'll be able to gauge them more accurately by choosing a higher resolution such as -24dB.

 
 ^ This. Some folks shoot for -12dB, other's -6. Trying for 0, in my experience, never yields good results when it comes time to mix and master.

No doubt the diagram could be improved
 

soens
1st, it shows the recorded clip going through it's envelopes and the FX bin before going through the "Gain" knob. Then it goes back through the FX bin?
 

Each clip has FX bin which would come before the input gain; the Track FX bin is after the input gain.
 

soens
2nd, it seems Sonar is either using the recorded clip as the input source, or the "Gain" knob is doubling up as a 2nd output fader.
 

This is a signal flow diagram, not a diagram of the recording process. A prerecorded clip can intiate the signal flow.
 

soens
Either way, once the signal has been recorded there is no way to regulate it's "input" level. If your clip was recorded too hot (in the red), the "Gain" knob isn't going to fix that for you... or will it?
 

Same is true with any recording device. Once the signal is recorded there is not much you can do to change the input. Both the clip gain and input gain will affect the signal from a clip before the it enters the track though.
 

soens
3rd, the chart shows 2 playback meters. One pre-fader and one post-fader. Huh??
 

It shows the two possible positions for the playback meter. It could be made more clear but I suggest keeping in mind the SONAR UI when reading the diagram. Was it really that confusing?
 

soens
4th, the "Pan" knob comes after the fader. But in the CV, and in real life mixers, it's before the fader.
 

Is this a problem? IDK. Must a DAW exactly mimic a "real life mixer". There are many differences between a DAW and the physical world it models.
 

soens
 
5th, there's a switch between the FX Bin and ProChannel leading me to believe only one or the other can be used, when you can actually use both.
 

Yes, the pre/post FX bin flow could be made clearer in the diagram but it appears not to be a problem WRT understanding the diagram.
 

One important thing to never forget is that when you are recording what you see on the meters is not at all accurate unless you set them at unity. The fader and gain have no impact on the levels being recorded. The levels are determined by what hits your preamps and your A/D converter. It then goes directly to disk. That is what is shown on the meters.
 
 From the manual page 120
Getting ready to record
At this point, we need to check the input levels to make sure they are sufficient and not distorting.
Perform as you would if you were recording and watch the meter on the track respond to the sounds
you produce.
If the meter never even comes close to the maximum, increase the input level. If the meter even
occasionally reaches the maximum, decrease the input level. Input levels are usually adjusted via a
knob next to the input jack on the sound card, but features like this may vary slightly between
devices. So, if you have never recorded an instrument or microphone with your sound card, you may
want to read about doing so in the device's manual.

Thanks all for trying to help ConfusedOne be unconfused. I may never fully understand all of it but I'll survive.
 
>>Was it really that confusing?<<
 
I could write a book about that but I'm too confused where to start. My mind was twisted at birth. As a result, I did not do so well in school.