Sorry if this is stupid. Just been pondering how it all works.

In relation to USB or firewire mixers/interfaces, what is the channel count available? 
IE: I know Adat is limited to 8 channels per pipe. I was wondering is there some guideline for USB and firewire.

In other words, if you have a USB or firewire equipped mixer, how many actual channels from Sonar can be accessed at once on the mixer?

if its usb 1.1, you'll be limited to (usually) 2 in 2 out. usb2 can handle many more than that, and it will be down to the device as to how many it supports

for most "usb mixers" under say $1000+, they will all be 2in 2out. therefore you will only see the mixed down version of all your channels.

the following are theoretical limits:

USB 1.1 is capable of 8 I/O, full duplex at 44.1kHz/16bit or 5 channels at 44.1kHz/24bit.
USB 2.0 is capable of 226 channels, full duplex at 44.1kHz/24bit
IEEE 1394 (400) is capable of 188 channels full duplex at 44.1kHz/24bit
the higher the sampling rate and/or bit rate the lower the number of full duplex channels you can run (theoretically) thru USB.

caveats: 
1) drivers will determine how many you can actually get without latency or popping/clicking issues
2) USB shares resources with the CPU (where firewire does not) and is more likely to have latency/popping/clicking issues for the same conditions than firewire, all other things being equal.
 
NOTE:  the numbers are FULL I/O.  for example, if you only need 2 channels of output (normal) then you could have 6 channels of input simulatneously playing back with stereo output on USB 1.1 at 44.1/16.  ex 2:  you have 2 stereo outputs, one for mains one for headphones, that takes up 4 of the channels, so only 4 inputs would be available at 44.1/16bit for USB 1.1.

Depends on the equipment. Many USB mixers only expose the stereo pair. Others multiple channels.

I have a ZED-R16 that is firewire and exposes the 16 channels plus the stereo pair making 18 in/out. Adding in the 8 possible ADAT channels loses the stereo pair giving 24 in/out.

Usually in/out count is closely related to price.

FastBikerBoy
I have a ZED-R16 that is firewire and exposes the 16 channels plus the stereo pair making 18 in/out. Adding in the 8 possible ADAT channels loses the stereo pair giving 24 in/out.

The ZED-R16's i/o channel trade-off is down to A&H's particular design I think, not due to FW's bandwidth limitations. FW400 can handle more than 24 in/out.


For example, at 44.1 or 48kHz 24-bit, M-Audio Profire Lightbridge offers 34 ins (4x ADAT (=32ch) + 1x S/PDIF (=2ch)) and 36 outs (4x ADAT (=32 ch) + 1x S/PDIF (=2ch) + 2x line (=2ch)) simultaneously. Plus 1x MIDI I/O. Presonus Firestudio Lightpipe does 32 in/out (4x ADAT i/o) over FW400 as well. And some outboard FW multi-channel interfaces with onboard digital (DSP) mixers offer more than 24 in/out also.


ZED-R16 is sweet tho!

Presonus Firestudio Lightpipe does 32 in/out (4x ADAT i/o) over FW400 as well. 

Adat over firewire?? huh?  Adat, to me, is a protocol on each end (mixer/computer) that is connected by a lightpipe cord and delivers 8 in/out per pipe.


FBB, So, the zed is a 16 channel controller? do you use the adat? I know you use the Mackie controllers.

timidi

Presonus Firestudio Lightpipe does 32 in/out (4x ADAT i/o) over FW400 as well. 

Adat over firewire?? huh?  Adat, to me, is a protocol on each end (mixer/computer) that is connected by a lightpipe cord and delivers 8 in/out per pipe.

Yes, ADAT can carry 8 channels/tracks of 24-bit @44.1/48kHz. Doubling or quadrupling the sampling rate halves/quarters the available channels per ADAT pipe (4 or 2) using SMUX.


PCs and Macs are not equipped with onboard ADAT i/o ports. So some other kind of interfacing (FW/USB/PCI/PCIe/Ethernet) is used in order to interconnect an ADAT-equipped unit (audio interface, AD/DA, mixer) with a PC/Mac.  FW or USB are used as intermediate interfacing  transport protocols in this way.


For example, the RME Digiface is an external box with 3x ADAT i/o and interconnects with a PC/Mac via a host interface card, using a FW physical connection between the external box and host card and a proprietary protocol only used by RME. Yamaha also used a special protocol over FW physical connection (MLan) for digitally interfacing their mixers. Other interfaces use other transport protocols over Ethernet network physical connections for this. It's all just data.

timidi

Presonus Firestudio Lightpipe does 32 in/out (4x ADAT i/o) over FW400 as well. 

Adat over firewire?? huh?  Adat, to me, is a protocol on each end (mixer/computer) that is connected by a lightpipe cord and delivers 8 in/out per pipe.


FBB, So, the zed is a 16 channel controller? do you use the adat? I know you use the Mackie controllers.

 
 

Yep the ZED is 16 channel. Great routing options. I can send audio out to each ZED channel, process it via inserts and the EQ (which is superb) and then re-record it onto the same track or a different one if I wish. Of course that applies to busses and as many tracks as I want up to the limitation of the ZEDs sixteen of course.
 
A full OTB mix is also possible but I haven't done that yet. (no automation)
 
I haven't used ADAT with it but it simply pipes into the back of the ZED and gets sent along the firewire, although there is some sample rate limitation. IIRC it won't work at 96kHz

Goddard

FastBikerBoy
I have a ZED-R16 that is firewire and exposes the 16 channels plus the stereo pair making 18 in/out. Adding in the 8 possible ADAT channels loses the stereo pair giving 24 in/out.

The ZED-R16's i/o channel trade-off is down to A&H's particular design I think, not due to FW's bandwidth limitations. FW400 can handle more than 24 in/out.


For example, at 44.1 or 48kHz 24-bit, M-Audio Profire Lightbridge offers 34 ins (4x ADAT (=32ch) + 1x S/PDIF (=2ch)) and 36 outs (4x ADAT (=32 ch) + 1x S/PDIF (=2ch) + 2x line (=2ch)) simultaneously. Plus 1x MIDI I/O. Presonus Firestudio Lightpipe does 32 in/out (4x ADAT i/o) over FW400 as well. And some outboard FW multi-channel interfaces with onboard digital (DSP) mixers offer more than 24 in/out also.


ZED-R16 is sweet tho!

Yes I never meant to imply any firewire limit, I'm aware it's the way the ZED is set up. It's bigger brother the GR-24M is even better. I'm currently investigating the body parts market so I can get one.  

What I'm reaching for is why manufacturers don't make more computer integrated mixer/controllers at a decent price point?

I mean, the audio world we live in is on a computer. As Beagle states, USB2.0 can move 226 channels. So, why is there not a mixer that will handle that? And, when I say mixer, I guess I'm really saying controller. So that, the mixer/controller is just an extension of the DAW.

Seems like most options available are either a "mixer" or a "controller".
I'm wondering if the motorized faders would be the most expensive part for the manufacturers.

Hi Goddard. you said:
"So some other kind of interfacing (FW/USB/PCI/PCIe/Ethernet) is used in order to interconnect an ADAT-equipped unit (audio interface, AD/DA, mixer) with a PC/Mac."

I use an old Panasonic DA7 digital mixer. Adat in/out of mixer to an RME AIO card. Are you telling me that I didn't need the RME card? I could of just got a TX inst firewire card to interface with my mixer.? Ouch...

Yes FBB. I know 16 channels. I meant the "controller" part, which you answered as there is no automation. Re-recording on the same track is an interesting concept. Never thunk of that. I used to do OTB mixes on my DA7 back when I had the RME9652 which supported 16 channels (now I only have 8). I might suggest you try OTB as you might notice some enhanced separation. The GR-24M looks pretty sweet.

I'm still confused about everything.....

The ZED-R16 will function as a controller, but it's no MCU. There's no motorised faders to start with.

There's a completely separate MIDI controller section consisting of 12 rotaries, eight buttons, and four faders, plus transport buttons, a couple of jog buttons and a shift key.

I do use that quite a lot but as an ACT controller for the faders and buttons, mainly for ProChannel control but the buttons I have set up for common tracking things like reset meters, MIDI sync on/of and a few others I use a lot.

The transport functions better set up as a generic CW surface.

The 16 faders are switchable into controller mode but they reset the assigned fader to unity when switching in and out of that mode, so it's okay to switch to control mode if all tracking is finished but I have a lot of out board gear attached, drum machines, synths, etc so tend to use it as a mixer plus of course I have the MCU & XT already.

There's also some strange design decisions for controller use. For example 20 faders total and 12 rotaries doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

The GR-24M with motorised faders is on my wish list, and the wife said it's staying there.