• SONAR
  • Why isn't there more hype about SONAR and touchscreens?! (p.3)
2013/12/30 16:39:05
lillloyd
mettelus
I am having a hard time envisioning touch screens taking off... the resolution of a "touch" is not great (limiting controls available), and ergonomic concerns would give OSHA a hay-day... not to mention my monitors are not even close enough to be touched... (I think my mom warned me sitting too close would make me blind... no wait, that was something else!)
 
As a secondary controller, perhaps, but I still have a hard time envisioning it being adopted readily. Win8 made me cringe right out of the chute because it came across as a "giant cell phone." I am not sure if I can ever get passed that first impression. Then again, I come from a background of high end gaming and spike 300 APM (actions per minutes), so that may be where I am holding the comparison. I guess the proof is in the pudding, so will see.
 
But then again... "Wii SONAR" would have a physical fitness twist to it...




I imagine if you kept a touch screen in the regular monitor position, you'd have a herniated disk in your neck in about a week.  It needs to go in the convetional mixer position (as Craig mentioned earlier) -- right in front of you, so that it sits almost where a QWERTY keyboard normally sits so that your hands almost fall on top of it in a relaxed position.  I use a keyboard pullout shelf thingy to keep the normal keyboard available, sort of below the touch screen.
 
I use a ton of synth and processing plugins.  I set the resolution a bit larger than the 1900x1080, so the controls are nice and chunky.  It's slightly fiddly every once in a while, but overall it's been great.  
 
I confess I haven't used the 'pure' mixing functions (console view/faders) as I don't have multitouch yet.  Still Win7 here (no giant cell phone lol).  But based on my initial experience I'll be upgrading soon.
 
 
2013/12/30 16:43:44
lillloyd
Treefight
I was an early adopter, getting the identical 27" Planar monitor shown in the CW videos from last year.  I have no regrets.  Based on the OP, W8 should definitely be a major upgrade from W7.  In addition to multi-point, I can control the faders and all other controls in CV (and multiple ones simultaneously at that).  However, for fine adjustments, I still use a mouse (or physical controller).
 
I agree that plugins are where the touchscreen really shines.  Having used/owned many controllers, including CW, Novation, Axiom, Mackie, among others, nothing beats touch.  No matter how you cut it, no physical controller - at least in my experience - can control all plugins all the time.  Automation is also a lot of fun using touch.
 
One notable exception:  Waves.  For whatever reason, touch does not work with their plugs!  Still, though I do own many Waves plugs, I also own many others (including CW, obviously, as well as UAD, NI, IKM, and others I can't recall right now...  Actually, come to think of it, touch might not work with x86 plugs, I don't remember as I use them so rarely now.
 
I also find it extremely helpful in TV and PRV for zooming in and out, as well as scrolling left and right.  It would, however, be nice to somehow select notes/regions using touch, though that seems impossible if the scrolling/zooming remained.
 
I'm in the process of moving my studio back home now, and look forward to experimenting with multiple monitors (touch and non-touch), as described here by others.  I'll also see how V-Control can add to the mix. 
 
Anyhow, I hope CW continues in this direction, implementing additional touch capabilities (if possible).




Strange...I have a ton of Waves plugs and they all seem to work perfectly with touch on my end.  I'm able to hit even the tiniest buttons on the API 2500 comp with touch...and of course the bigger comps like the CLA series have huge buttons to begin with.  And I'm able to drag the EQ curves in H-EQ around no problem.  (I'm lowering the resolution though to make things bigger, FWIW)
 
I just had a horrible thought, what if when I upgraded to Win8/multitouch the Waves stuff stops working (LOL!)
2013/12/30 16:48:08
drewfx1
lillloyd
drewfx1

I'm not aware yet of a way to simulate right-clicking, which is important on some plugins (for example, Massive with its very tiny boxes for modulation routings--this still requires a mouse right-click).

 
If you hold down your finger, it becomes a right click.
 
 
Actually having recently picked up an inexpensive ASUS Windows 8.1 tablet, I was thinking it would be really cool if Sonar would allow a touch-centric "remote window interface" which could exist either on a locally attached touchscreen or on a networked device like a tablet.
 
I know there are remote control apps for various devices, but being able to put (copies of) specific parts of Sonar's interface on my tablet would be unbelievably useful and cool.




Yeah still Win7 here (single touch).  Good to know though about the right click in Win8 touchscreens.
 
The app you're describing already exists to some extent, but it's in the Apple universe.  "V-Control Pro".  It's $50 and for what it does it's brilliant.  It has two parts -- one is a mixer/transport view with jog wheel and bankable fader groups (thereis a Sonar template incldued), and the other is something called "V window" which basically copies any floating window you select to the iPad.  It connects via wifi.  
 
My only problem with it was that the iPad was slightly too small to really cover enough real estate for certain plugins.




Yeah, I know there are remote apps, but I'm thinking of actual Sonar interface elements optimized for touch on either a local or remote device - like say a tabbed interface with things like say an oversized markers view and a stripped down console view that contains Sonar's icons/colors/etc.
 
And it could sort of solve the problem where people who don't use touch complain that stuff is too big and wastes screen real estate, while the people who use touch complain that stuff is too small for touch.
2013/12/30 17:00:10
JimmyBoy
I think the current designs of almost all applications don't suit touch screens properly - lots of improvement in the design of apps should be looked at specifically for touch specific apps - there are some around such as the ebay applet that comes with windows 8, allowing you to scroll left to right instead of up and down, (much like the Start screen in Windows 8) that way you can use hands by swiping sideways instead of scrolling down/upwards, swiping sideways feels a lot more natural. 
 
I've always wanted a laptop which has a touch screen keyboard, an area below the TS keyboard for touchpad and a separate TS display, that way a developer could reorganize the keyboard with the application, especially when using a DAW - they could have all controllers displayed on the keyboard screen and the main display above the keyboard TS Display would display the wave shapes and stuff your working with...
2013/12/30 18:19:04
bandso
I friend of mine just dropped $3500 on a Slate MTi to do more of less the same thing with protools. Now don't get me wrong, there are some other killer things that the MTi does, but core features like transport and editing are the same as getting a 27" touchscreen (for what like $700) and using Sonar :)
2013/12/30 19:27:45
Splat
JimmyBoy
Hi Alex,
 
Yeah I did see that link (JimT is me ;) )


Classic !
2013/12/30 20:07:49
lillloyd
bandso
I friend of mine just dropped $3500 on a Slate MTi to do more of less the same thing with protools. Now don't get me wrong, there are some other killer things that the MTi does, but core features like transport and editing are the same as getting a 27" touchscreen (for what like $700) and using Sonar :)




Exactly...  IMHO the Slate MTi could get cannibalized by unassuming touch screens as the tech advances and the app become more 'touch-friendly'.  There's precedent for it too: the JazzMutant Lemur was a $2K touch control surface just a few years ago, and recently it's been reborn as a $25 iTunes app.  No one was going to buy the original version once it became apparent that apps could be developed on iPad that did 90% of what the original did, for a hundredth of the price.  
 
I'd love to have the MTi, but having just been burned on PT dropping support for the Control 24, I'm more cautious about investing significant dollars in the mid-range controller market.  (I love Slate's stuff, but who's to say they won't drop support for MTi in a couple of years?)  $3500 is doable, but it's also not chump change!  Unlike, say, boutique hardware (which you can pick up used and resell later for a similar price), hardware controllers don't hold value in the same manner, and can be reduced to 'doorstop' status if the manufacturer decides it wants to EOL it.    
2013/12/31 19:59:26
bandso
As much as I'd like to have a MTx I'm not going to drop $30K even if it is one of the coolest new tool around. NewEgg.com has 46" touch screen monitors for as low as 23 hundred. Give that a few years and they will be under a grand.
2013/12/31 20:33:50
MacFurse
New here, but I have been reading for a while. Pretty much been through most of Cake's DAWS over the years, and now considering X3 from X2, but happy enough at the moment to keep thinking about it.
 
As much as I 'want' to stay touchscreen, (the reason I bought my all in one touchscreen desktop), after losing many weeks of work due to a bug that crawled across the screen and deleted a complete project!!!!!!!!!, I have resisted the urge to return to that work environment.
 
Just something to consider if you work late into the night in a room you can't completely seal off!!
 
I will stay 'non' touch for a little longer, despite how much I enjoyed some of the freedom obtained.
 
Great otherwise.
2013/12/31 22:29:13
mmorgan
Appreciate the original post, here's some of my opinions masquerading as thoughts:
 
First but not necessarily foremost is that I believe 'touch' needs to be looked at in a historical perspective. When DAT first came out some people thought it was the end of civilization and others thought it could be a great way to expand track count without degrading sound quality. Over time the technology just kept improving and now we have the modern DAW. In light of this historical perspective somebody mentioned doing away the screen and going straight to holograms...I was thinking that both of them could be dismissed and it would be based entirely on what you could envision in your head. Sound ridiculous right? What about amputees controlling their new found limbs through thought?
 
Next up is a qualifier: If I had a wonderful console already I doubt I would be looking at 'touch'. I'd already have everything I need but over time what if that hardware was holding me back whether through technological obsolescence or just deterioration. I was in my basement today and saw an old (circa 1978) TASCAM mixing board...the faders no longer move, completely stuck. Afraid to even look at my old reel to reels.  The fact is I don't have a wonderful old console. I was looking at the VS-700 (just before Cakewalk showed multi-touch functionality) and it seemed to me there were some very upset customers dissatisfied with the implementation of that controller in the new X series. That really got me thinking just how much I was willing to spend for a CS.
 
This brings up a truth about touch screens: It is much is easier to modify something that is virtual as opposed to bits of metals, circuit boards and various other materials bolted together. With touch the screen could be modified at will to match the capabilities of the DAW. To me that is very powerful. So if the DAW allows hiding/showing channels the screen reflects that immediately. Muy Bueno!
 
Seems like I could go on but it is New Years...so I'll just say this: when Cakewalk first showed the demo vids of multi-touch I wanted it THEN. I still want it and I will get it but things need to move in progressive iteration of OS, DAW and various other things. In the meantime, I have a nice little Window Surface running Win 8.1. It works fantastic as a remote transport control and it works okay for changing some minor items in tracking mode. But it is too small to mix on though it is kind of fun moving multiple faders at once.
 
I really look forward to what the future may hold. Have a great New Year.
 
Regards,
© 2026 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1

Use My Existing Forum Account

Use My Social Media Account