Keni

brundlefly

Keni
1) add modifier to alt-click such as ctrl-alt-click to give discrete lane splitting with fast access to this tool

I have't followed the whole thread, and maybe I'm misunderstanding the meaning of "discrete", but doesn't alt+click already let you split anywhere you want without affecting other lanes (my interpretation of "discrete")?

Not here...
 
If I use alt-click it splits all the lanes on that track...
 
I now use the split tool via F8 to do this
then return to smart tool via F5
select the overlapping clip and use K to unmute it (ctrl-click splits it on all lanes)
draw my fades...
 
Keni
 

Something's not right then, because for an individual lane, alt+click will split only the clip that I'm hovering over on that single lane. To split all lanes at once, I click the header of the master track to highlight it, move the now time where I want it and press the s key, or I collapse the lanes and use alt+click on the master track to split all lanes at once.
 

StepD

Keni

brundlefly

Keni
1) add modifier to alt-click such as ctrl-alt-click to give discrete lane splitting with fast access to this tool

I have't followed the whole thread, and maybe I'm misunderstanding the meaning of "discrete", but doesn't alt+click already let you split anywhere you want without affecting other lanes (my interpretation of "discrete")?

Not here...
 
If I use alt-click it splits all the lanes on that track...
 
I now use the split tool via F8 to do this
then return to smart tool via F5
select the overlapping clip and use K to unmute it (ctrl-click splits it on all lanes)
draw my fades...
 
Keni
 

Something's not right then, because for an individual lane, alt+click will split only the clip that I'm hovering over on that single lane. To split all lanes at once, I click the header of the master track to highlight it, move the now time where I want it and press the s key, or I collapse the lanes and use alt+click on the master track to split all lanes at once.
 

 
It sounds as though you are not using the smart tool/comp tool as that's how it always behaved in X3c and earlier
 
that was the process I was always used to... Maybe you're using the edit tool?
 
Keni
 

The very fact that a thread like this, with so many different people presenting so many different issues with Take Lanes, shows that something needs to be done with it.  All the assurances in the world that everything is fine and that you can do anything and everything quickly and easily are unconvincing in the face of the diversity of difficulties presented.
 
I appreciate the helpful spirit of so many here to try to ease adjusting to the new tools.  I remain hopeful, however, that behind the scenes Cakewalk recognizes the need to do something to improve the system.
 
For an example of a similar Lane/Comping tool system which I find works quite well, check out Cubase - I'm familiar with 6.5.  It's possible that without prior experience with Cubase, I'm more tolerant of the learning curve, but I also think there's a way in which it "just works", while recent versions of Sonar have everybody giving long-winded explanations and watching videos just to get basic functionality.
 
I also think it kind of goes against Sonar's position in the market to have a more complicated toolset which can't be bypassed for something bog-simple...

Keni
 
It sounds as though you are not using the smart tool/comp tool as that's how it always behaved in X3c and earlier
 
that was the process I was always used to... Maybe you're using the edit tool?
 
Keni
 

Nope, I'm using the smart tool. Did you test in a new project to make sure it's not just project specific?

StepD

Keni
 
It sounds as though you are not using the smart tool/comp tool as that's how it always behaved in X3c and earlier
 
that was the process I was always used to... Maybe you're using the edit tool?
 
Keni
 

Nope, I'm using the smart tool. Did you test in a new project to make sure it's not just project specific?

It is deeply project specific for sure... read the many posts regarding that... I've been trying to isolate it as it seems to be in every project I'm working on created in both X2 and X3... tho not in X3d...
 
I've removed all tracks and plugins and it starts working at different stages with different plugins still in place... but if i remove all lanes on a track more than 1, the problem goes away regardless...
 
I'm testing right now and it doesn't appear to be a problem (yet?) at all with new projects started with X3d
 
It still is a bit "off" as it does zoom it to the correct size, but displays it not fully on screen and I must scroll it to occupy the full screen...
 
So on first attempts, the problem is only fully "bad" when working on pre-X3d projects...
 
 
Keni
 

Keni
 
It is deeply project specific for sure... read the many posts regarding that... I've been trying to isolate it as it seems to be in every project I'm working on created in both X2 and X3... tho not in X3d...
 
I've removed all tracks and plugins and it starts working at different stages with different plugins still in place... but if i remove all lanes on a track more than 1, the problem goes away regardless...
 
I'm testing right now and it doesn't appear to be a problem (yet?) at all with new projects started with X3d
 
It still is a bit "off" as it does zoom it to the correct size, but displays it not fully on screen and I must scroll it to occupy the full screen...
 
So on first attempts, the problem is only fully "bad" when working on pre-X3d projects...
 
 
Keni
 

Yeah, it would be weird if a plugin was messing up the split function, but I guess anything's possible. I opened an X2 project with lanes in X3d, and I still wasn't having problems with alt+click or the s key, so it really must be some strange mix of things in your trouble projects.

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]

Anderton
 
If they're different performances, what's wrong with having them in different Take Lanes? You can trim individual clips within take lanes if you want. Sounds can overlap all you want if they're in different lanes. They can also play back at the same time.

Exactly, overlaps are permitted as long as they reside in different lanes. So you can certainly continue to work with cases where you want stacking of voices on a single track. The comping workflow favors isolation but you can certainly ctrl-click on a clip to make it sound simultaneously with another lane. 
 
Here is the thing. However users interpreted the old layers approach. it was originally intended for comping but fell short because the design was too simplistic and didn't handle the 90% case it was intended to solve, which is comping a single part out of many takes. Yes you could comp in a loose sense with layers, by using workarounds and by manually toggling the solos and mutes along with using the older isolate tool. I've worked with the old layers approach myself and frankly the experience wasn't good, requiring so many intermediate operations that it destroyed my focus on what I was trying to do.
 
Essentially all the old layers paradigm did internally was assigning an index to the clips withing tracks. Beyond that you were on your own to mute solo or isolate the individual clips after recording multiple passes. It was a cumbersome workflow requiring users to manually toggle the solo states after each record pass to hear it.
On the other hand with the take lanes design, we started with the use cases we wished to be effortless and worked from there on designing tools especially for that purpose. We considered all boundary use cases as well as we could, and alternate workflow decisions were also carefully considered. Take lanes also build upon similar infrastructure as layers (that's why its backwards compatible) but all the magic and logic lives in the new tools and commands. Essentially lanes *are* layers with tools that are optimized for the most requested comping operations.
 
For those asking why we couldn't retain the old layers UI functionality, the reasons are manifold. The tools paradigm there wasn't something that could be extended to do what we wanted. Also it would have been an utter mess to maintain and support two completely different user interfaces especially since the latter was a dead end.
We can pretty much do most of what the manual layers approach did better and faster with the lanes approach. If there are missing workflows we can consider them and expand lanes to accommodate it potentially but your cases need to be clearly articulated and described separately. Putting a million posts into a single thread makes it very difficult for anyone to decipher and ends up clouding the issue further. A good way to describe workflow related problems are by stating use cases or "stories". Make a thread or report explaining exactly what you are trying to do from start to finish and why you cannot achieve it with the given tools. That's by far the best way to communicate an idea to a product manager or someone involved with the feature.

It seems to me that you're forcing a lot of users to adopt ''your way'' of working with total disregard to habits they've been developping over the years, simply because ''you'' find it's a better way of doing things - I don't remember a lot of complains about layers, maybe a few bugs to fix here in and there like when re-organizing them - Lanes took away pretty much everything that made Sonar different and maybe even ''better'' at some things -
 
 

I see X3 is layering lanes in "descending" order whereas X2 lists them in "ascending" order. I like X2 better for this.

brundlefly

Keni
1) add modifier to alt-click such as ctrl-alt-click to give discrete lane splitting with fast access to this tool

I have't followed the whole thread, and maybe I'm misunderstanding the meaning of "discrete", but doesn't alt+click already let you split anywhere you want without affecting other lanes (my interpretation of "discrete")?

Hi bf...
Not on my system it isn't... At least not when smart tool or comp mode is engaged
 
Keni
 

Kewl Hendagang
It seems to me that you're forcing a lot of users to adopt ''your way'' of working with total disregard to habits they've been developping over the years, simply because ''you'' find it's a better way of doing things - I don't remember a lot of complains about layers, maybe a few bugs to fix here in and there like when re-organizing them - Lanes took away pretty much everything that made Sonar different and maybe even ''better'' at some things

+1

Layers were soooo easy to use and edit. Super simple.
I can't even FIND a video that shows someone comping loosely played drums.  I can find videos of people picking parts of a take to use.  That's easy.  Now fix the timing of those 3+ takes using lanes.  Now do it with multi-miced drums.
 
It's not a challenge or a dare. I actually want to be told I'm an idiot so I can learn how to use this software again for editing timing issues :/