http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2892692

Scook... you are the man!!!

I think Andrew was mentioning a free X3d trial was on the horizon, fwiw...
 
penny wise/pound foolish i am hearing... ain't nothin' on the planet comparable to X3 and the upgrade price is peanuts given the new tools... or u can pay 3xs more and start complainin' elsewhere!
 
If I spent this much time arguing about stuff I no longer used because way better stuff evolved... I'd still be on that pogo stick which I had so many problems with...
 
think of it as... rapid evolution... 
 
I bought my first piece of Cake back in Sonar 5ish days... in all that time have never seen the geniuses on this forum so pleased (albeit nits here and there) as with X3...
 
And just deal with it... your timing sucked!  I could sit here complaining about how much I spent on all the vids that are now way cheaper...  OY!!! 
 

I upgraded from X2 only because they fixed long standing problems with the Playlist. When I installed it I found that they broke it again in a different and arguably worse way.

Companies change. Do you think anyone is going to fix the bugs in Venom now that M-Audio has been purchased by another company?
 
Look at what Cakewalk is doing now. Since X3 was released in late September, there have been three updates with a fourth coming any day. There's free content being given away to users. The bakers are being very responsive in the forums. Bugs are being identified, prioritized (you simply can't fix everything all at once, so you go for the ones that the most people are concerned about) and squashed, and features are being added. Users are happy, and showing that with their support of the program. This in turn provides more resources for Cakewalk to keep doing updates and improving X3, which makes for happy users, which means more support, etc...it's a positive feedback loop.
 
If Cakewalk was to divert its attention to moving backward and making changes in X2, that would not allow X3 to move forward at its current pace, if at all. X3 is a superior program in many ways compared to X2 which is why it is doing well. Even if issues are fixed in X2 (and I personally haven't encountered any showstoppers), it still won't have the speed comping, VST 3 support, ARA integration, engine efficiencies, flyout EQ, and the like that make X3 so compelling.
 
I think if you asked the people on this forum whether Cakewalk should allocate its resources to continue making X3 an amazing piece of software or fixing a few remaining bugs in X2, most people would vote in favor of devoting resources to X3.
 
 

I'd never bash on anyone that has a legit problem with Sonar or any other software. I've been down that road and have paid for newer versions from companies in order to fix what was broken and never working in the old version. This is totally unfair no matter who it happens to. It sucks, and I feel your pain eli. Unfortunately, there's not much you can do other than contacting support to see if they can fix your issue or possibly offer a work-around. I don't use take lanes in Sonar X2 or in X3. Why? Because I simply don't need them and can do the exact same thing creating multiple tracks that give me bigger windows to work with and then I can just create one track and combine all the good comps. I've been doing it for years without take lanes....I came into this world without them, I could care less if they ever fix them right. I couldn't even tell you how they are in X3. I prefer punching in until I get it right personally, so this feature isn't something that concerns *me*.
 
Sometimes a DAW will not work the way YOU want it to. When that happens you either search for work-arounds or you invest in another DAW. Seriously. I use Sonar 8.5, X2 and X3 6 to 7 days a week for more than 12-14 hours a night. Trust me when I tell you, if this software was broken, I'd be using something else. I have a business that is relentless thank God. I need a DAW that works and never lets me down. The second Sonar starts to let me down, I'll contact support and see if they can help me. While I'm doing that, I'll switch to a version of Sonar that I know will get me through like X1 or 8.5. Those have always worked fantastic for how *I* use the program and X2 and X3 are doing the same for me. Again, that is not to discredit you or anyone else having problems. It made me sick to read a few of the responses above. People think because they are having 0 problems or may have the money to upgrade every year without fail that they should show a lack of compassion for someone that may be experiencing problems. That's not only unfair, it shows a lack of respect for another person's opinion.
 
Like I said, I can relate totally...just thankfully, not with any Cakewalk products as they have never failed me even with a few bugs. We had a few early versions of Sonar that had a few show stoppers but the Bakers fixed the important ones faster than you can say Jackie Robinson. So if you have legit gripes, call tech support after 1 pm tomorrow and see if they can sort you out. I've gotten through every time in 5 minutes or under. Good luck.
 
-Danny

Danny Danzi
I'd never bash on anyone that has a legit problem with Sonar or any other software. I've been down that road and have paid for newer versions from companies in order to fix what was broken and never working in the old version. This is totally unfair no matter who it happens to. It sucks, and I feel your pain eli. Unfortunately, there's not much you can do other than contacting support to see if they can fix your issue or possibly offer a work-around. I don't use take lanes in Sonar X2 or in X3. Why? Because I simply don't need them and can do the exact same thing creating multiple tracks that give me bigger windows to work with and then I can just create one track and combine all the good comps. I've been doing it for years without take lanes....I came into this world without them, I could care less if they ever fix them right. I couldn't even tell you how they are in X3. I prefer punching in until I get it right personally, so this feature isn't something that concerns *me*.
 
Sometimes a DAW will not work the way YOU want it to. When that happens you either search for work-arounds or you invest in another DAW. Seriously. I use Sonar 8.5, X2 and X3 6 to 7 days a week for more than 12-14 hours a night. Trust me when I tell you, if this software was broken, I'd be using something else. I have a business that is relentless thank God. I need a DAW that works and never lets me down. The second Sonar starts to let me down, I'll contact support and see if they can help me. While I'm doing that, I'll switch to a version of Sonar that I know will get me through like X1 or 8.5. Those have always worked fantastic for how *I* use the program and X2 and X3 are doing the same for me. Again, that is not to discredit you or anyone else having problems. It made me sick to read a few of the responses above. People think because they are having 0 problems or may have the money to upgrade every year without fail that they should show a lack of compassion for someone that may be experiencing problems. That's not only unfair, it shows a lack of respect for another person's opinion.
 
Like I said, I can relate totally...just thankfully, not with any Cakewalk products as they have never failed me even with a few bugs. We had a few early versions of Sonar that had a few show stoppers but the Bakers fixed the important ones faster than you can say Jackie Robinson. So if you have legit gripes, call tech support after 1 pm tomorrow and see if they can sort you out. I've gotten through every time in 5 minutes or under. Good luck.
 
-Danny

Thank you Danny. That was very well stated.  I find quite a lot of disrespect for people that have problems with Sonar on this forum.  Sort of a love it or leave it mentality.

What I don't understand is why people who have all these problems simply don't use other software. There are people who've migrated to Sonar because they encountered deal-breakers with other software, and there are deal-breakers in Sonar for some users that have caused them to go elsewhere. If there was a perfect, universally suitable DAW, everyone would use it and there would be no other DAWs on the market. The reason for all these different products is to accommodate different needs.
 
I suspect the frustration is because these people know deep down that all other software will have problems too, and they want Sonar to be perfect, because then it would be the perfect software for them. But I can guarantee you that software of this level of complexity, in use with a huge variety of systems running all different kinds of hardware and versions of operating system software, will never be perfect. Ever. And those using the software will have different priorities on what should or should not be fixed. So, realistically speaking your only option is to find the software whose problems don't coincide with your needs, and use it. For example, if being able to edit in a staff view was a vital part of my musical life, I'd look for software that excelled in this area, and tolerate whatever shortcomings it had in other areas.
 
Furthermore, dealing with the past gets complicated. At some point something has to be considered finished, and you move on. To quote myself from a different thread with the same person expressing the same viewpoint:
 
Can you imagine if musicians were subject to this kind of thinking? "I think your first album has a bunch of mistakes in it, especially some of the mixes but also some parts are out of time, so I think you should redo the parts and remix the tracks so the album is up to today's standards before releasing another album. Oh, and you should replace my first copy for free."
 
For better or for worse, that's just not the way the world works. Well, on second thought maybe Trent Reznor would remix stuff and give it away for free...but he's an exception

Hi Craig,
 
I can totally agree with that and see where you're coming from. But allow me to play devils advocate for a second...and I swear, I'm not trying to be confrontational.
 
So you have this software that you paid for. You have problems with it. You contact support and nothing can be done to help you with your problem. Because it's software, one of the only things in this world that we CANNOT return, you are stuck with it.
 
Now, a year later, you get an email telling you that for such and such a price, you get version 2. In version 2, this that this this this and this has been fixed and this that this and this has been added. Though it's at an appealing price with really good stuff, you are STILL left with a piece of software that may not work for you that may have things in your workflow that will not ever work for you. And you're just supposed to chalk it up and suck it up. Think about that for a second while being in a financial situation to where upgrading may not be possible for you. And, maybe switching DAWs may not be an option. What do you do and how fair is that?
 
I've gotten screwed in this situation after spending oh, about $14,000 with a company that just could not accommodate me. What's the difference if a person spends $150 or $14,000 on something? When it doesn't work, it doesn't work. If you exhaust everything possible and contact support and they still can't help you and know you have a legit problem, shouldn't a refund be issued so that you can maybe move on to something that works for you? But because this is software, we're just supposed to allow that to happen. To me, this is unfair as well as people that chime in and make the person that is experiencing the issues feel like a crybaby.
 
If I told you what I did to the company that jacked me for 14k, you'd remove my post...so I'll keep that to myself. But let's just say, they'll never jack me again. :)
 
But what are your thoughts about a situation like that? Can you see where it may change things considerably? Again, I'm not trying to argue or start anything. I just have noticed that like Vintage said, quite a few people really get attacked for stating that they feel a bit...well, sort of let down that there was no X2 update. I'd be one of them if the functions it is lacking were not working for me. I was a bit upset when I read there would be no patch for X2 as well. I understand they have to move on and all that goes with it. But in an economy where people are really struggling, asking them to suck it up when they take a chance on something and lose is way too much to ask in my opinion.
 
Now if someone is just a troll that wants to bash on Sonar who hasn't taken the right steps to try and remedy problem, by all means....I can understand some hostility from people supporting Sonar. But you've seen it man...far too many just lash out with sharp tongues when maybe a person may have a legit problem. Even if there is a work-around, that is not the same as having the damaged feature fully working. I love and support Sonar as much as the next guy...but when they do something wrong, I have to call a spade a spade. I don't EVER feel an upgrade that fixes broken issues in an older version should be the reason you buy new software. I'm not saying stay on a version for life and keep on fixing it...but man, anything else in life we buy that doesn't work right has options. In this situation, your option is to go frig yourself and save MORE money to buy the upgraded daw or find another one. Think about it....it's totally ludicrous really. I can't see it any other way man.
 
-Danny

Danny Danzi
Hi Craig,
 
So you have this software that you paid for. You have problems with it. You contact support and nothing can be done to help you with your problem. Because it's software, one of the only things in this world that we CANNOT return, you are stuck with it.
 
Now, a year later, you get an email telling you that for such and such a price, you get version 2. In version 2, this that this this this and this has been fixed and this that this and this has been added. Though it's at an appealing price with really good stuff, you are STILL left with a piece of software that may not work for you that may have things in your workflow that will not ever work for you. And you're just supposed to chalk it up and suck it up. Think about that for a second while being in a financial situation to where upgrading may not be possible for you. And, maybe switching DAWs may not be an option. What do you do and how fair is that?
 
But what are your thoughts about a situation like that?

People should avail themselves of demo programs, and use the software to see if it can provide the features that are most important for them. Granted, demo versions are not always available for all types of software, but the issue here is about Cakewalk and Sonar, not about what other companies do. Although Cakewalk does not necessarily release demos simultaneously with a new product, if someone really wants to make sure the software is right for them, they should probably wait until they've had a chance to try out a demo. For example if comping with multitrack drums is really important, then test that functionality and if a program doesn't do it to your satisfaction, try another program. (Back when ReWire was new and implementations varied wildly, I didn't get Reason until I knew it could ReWire reliably into Sonar.)
 
It seems most of the people here have some specific workflow issue, bug, or simply a disagreement with the designers of how a feature should be implemented. In the case of the latter, I think it's unreasonable to expect a feature to be implemented that addresses a small section of the user base IF that feature has been implemented in such a way as to serve the needs of the majority of users. Speed comping is a good example of that. If you're doing traditional comping, the new speed comping is a HUGE improvement over the previous options. The tradeoff is that it may make a more esoteric comping application more difficult, but that benefits a much smaller section of the user base. Designers will tend to want to satisfy the greatest number of people.
 
But also, there's a much bigger issue at play here as the scenario you describe applies to high-tech products in general in both our industry and consumer electronics. It is definitely not the case that "anything else in life we buy that doesn't work right has options." Far from it. The world of consumer electronics is littered with orphans that not only have bugs, but if they stop working, cannot be fixed and aren't supported. Also, many of them required investments in content that is no longer useable. I also don't like the fact that most repairs these days are board swaps instead of component replacements. There are a lot of aspects of having a relationship with high-tech gear that are highly problematic because society does not place value on permanence, but on low cost and convenience. There are plenty of computer hardware devices that will work just fine with 64-bit operating systems, but the companies deliberately chose not to update their 32-bit drivers either because they felt it wasn't worth the effort, or because they wanted to induce people to buy new products. Anyone who DID try to create a 64-bit driver ran the risk of violating the EULA about reverse engineering and could have been prosecuted. I guess technically speaking, that's an option...just not a good one.
 
All the problems mentioned in this forum can be fixed simply by throwing resources at them. I'm sure Sonar could be very close to everyone's ideal software if it cost $10,000 and was purchased in the same quantities as people who buy the standard versions. But that's never going to happen. As consumers, we have to decide whether the low prices (relatively speaking) we pay for high tech products are sufficient incentive to give a pass to the fact that some problems will exist, and some of these problems will turn out to be intractable. Do I like that? Not particularly. Do I accept it? Yes.