• SONAR
  • Order of signal path
2013/12/13 21:13:13
Lydian Audio
So I have seen one other post about signal path, but it didn't quite have the answer I was looking for.  Thought maybe a new post could help me and some others.
 
It seems that the general consensus is to have EQ before compression on individual tracks along with an optional EQ after compression.  Got it.  I'll come back to the 2nd EQ...
 
So when it comes to Console emulators, tube saturation, and virtual tape, where do these go?
 
My thought, and correct me if I'm wrong or it doesn't make sense, is the following:  (with the signal reading top to bottom in the prochannel)
 
1. Console Emulator (my mind says it should come into the console first)
2. Tube Saturator
3. EQ
4. Compressor
5. Virtual Tape
6. Then to the FX bin
 
Aside from this theory being correct on the signal path, my question about the 2nd EQ is where does it go and how do you get it after the compressor yet before the VT if this is the right order?  To my knowledge I have tried to place a second eq in the pro channel and it will not let you.
 
Appreciate any help and explanation!
 
Thanks. 
 
 
 
2013/12/14 00:45:53
mettelus
I think your question is more about effect chain order (and seems focused on the prochannel)?
 
Before saying anything, realize there is no set order... much is based on taste and what you want to hear. This is the reason why many multi-effect processors allow you to reorder the effects as you choose (including the prochannel). If there was a set order, you wouldn't be able to change them
 
Typically, a signal goes through a path of pre-gain (noise gates, compressors, signal mods, EQs, etc.), gain (distortions, saturation, overdrives, etc.), and post-gain (chorus/phase/flange, etc. with reverbs and delays being last). Even placement of the EQ is taste in many ways (before or after compression).
 
The only thing that sticks out to me is that I would put saturation after the compressor. Reason is that saturation is based on the input signal level, and an uncompressed signal may not sound "fluid." I have rarely used Console Emulator (so cannot speak to it well at all), and view it as a "post-gain effect," so I personally would be prone to put that before the tape simulator (also a "post-gain effect" in my mind).
 
A big part of your question is personal taste and how it sounds to you, so experimenting with the order and turning them on/off will allow you to see how dynamically they affect the signal with their current placement. As far as "other EQs," you can add them to the track (FX bin and PC), and then the output bus (FX bin and PC, if used), and master bus (FX bin and PC).
2013/12/14 18:32:26
Lydian Audio
Well I think both of your replies are correct.  I do realize much is personal taste.  Though I am thinking there must be some rule of thumb for the aforementioned plugins of where they'd be placed and why.    
2013/12/14 21:12:52
pdarg
There was a big thread sometime earlier which asserted that the console emulator should always be last in the ProChannel chain.
2013/12/14 22:57:30
Lydian Audio
I think I found the answer!  That being said its odd that the console is always automatically added to the end.
 
 
You will typically want to insert the Console Emulator module as the first module, and make sure ProChannel has Post FX Bin disabled. However, you can also experiment with placing the Console Emulator module at the end and enable Post FX Bin, so all your effects and processed sound are affected."
2013/12/14 23:00:06
mettelus
Cakewalk has a brief description to the Console Emulator here, with suggestions at the bottom.
 
A brief answer to your question (and is just my perspective) is this:
 
Big picture, you want to only be playing with the signal that you want to hear, so EQ first is often used to trim/adjust that signal first. Craig Anderton had a nice post a few weeks ago on low passing guitar amp sims ~5KHz because the "fake harmonics" above that getting into the rest of the signal path can sound terrible (i.e. they do not "belong" yet are getting amplified and processed).
 
Compression is often next, as you take this signal you want, and "level" it to taste so that effects apply "equally" (more or less) across its dB variation.
 
Saturation/Overdrive/Distortion is often next, since these create "clipping" and need a fairly high signal in to achieve this. If a signal is not compressed, only portions above a certain dB may see the distortion, while the rest doesn't. Likewise... if EQ was not used prior to this, you can potentially "overdrive" a part of the signal you did not want in the first place, so "getting rid of it" become 10 times harder (and you can attenuate the signal you want to keep doing this as well).
 
To me, both the console emulator and tape sim introduce "noise"... and adding a little for feel is fine, but if introduced before compression/saturation, you have now taken "noise" and "amplified" it twice. Of course, this depends a lot on how much you have introduced as well. To me, it is far more "controllable" at the end of the signal path to do so.
 
Please keep in mind this is simply my personal preference, and even based on the final sound you want, these can be varied, but if you google "effect chaining" or such, you can find a lot of sites that go into much deeper explanations for you.
 
 
 
2013/12/14 23:12:31
AT
Don't use anything you don't have a reason to.  If you need 16 effects piled onto your track, it might be better to retrack it.
 
@
2013/12/16 08:38:20
Lydian Audio
mettelus
Cakewalk has a brief description to the Console Emulator , with suggestions at the bottom.
 
A brief answer to your question (and is just my perspective) is this:
 
Big picture, you want to only be playing with the signal that you want to hear, so EQ first is often used to trim/adjust that signal first. Craig Anderton had a nice post a few weeks ago on low passing guitar amp sims ~5KHz because the "fake harmonics" above that getting into the rest of the signal path can sound terrible (i.e. they do not "belong" yet are getting amplified and processed).
 
Compression is often next, as you take this signal you want, and "level" it to taste so that effects apply "equally" (more or less) across its dB variation.
 
Saturation/Overdrive/Distortion is often next, since these create "clipping" and need a fairly high signal in to achieve this. If a signal is not compressed, only portions above a certain dB may see the distortion, while the rest doesn't. Likewise... if EQ was not used prior to this, you can potentially "overdrive" a part of the signal you did not want in the first place, so "getting rid of it" become 10 times harder (and you can attenuate the signal you want to keep doing this as well).
 
To me, both the console emulator and tape sim introduce "noise"... and adding a little for feel is fine, but if introduced before compression/saturation, you have now taken "noise" and "amplified" it twice. Of course, this depends a lot on how much you have introduced as well. To me, it is far more "controllable" at the end of the signal path to do so.
 
Please keep in mind this is simply my personal preference, and even based on the final sound you want, these can be varied, but if you google "effect chaining" or such, you can find a lot of sites that go into much deeper explanations for you.
 

 
 
Well I gotta say, you make perfect sense and its something I should definitely experiment with.  If its one thing I dislike about the digital world is it seems to be very wishy washy.  There is no clear cut "this is how you do it" scenario.  I guess maybe analog had some form of this too.  That being said.  I love what we are able to do now as opposed to what I could do back in the late 80s early 90s with my 4-track recorder. ;)
 
Thanks for the input, much appreciated!!
 
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