• SONAR
  • How to get good cymbal sound and feel from midi/vst track?
2013/12/06 15:36:31
kzmaier
Well to get into the spirit of drum month, I would love to get some suggestions to improve my drum mix.
 
The two areas I would like to focus on are humanizing the Hi Hat and processing used on cymbal tracks to improve realism. 
 
1. Sometimes my HH sounds more like a clock than a drummer.  Ive tried using cal scripts but was never happy with results.
 
2. Many times my cymbals have a very unrealistic sound due to quick drop off.  I've tried adding reverb and raising the high end eq but no go.
 
Thanks in advance,
Ken
2013/12/06 15:54:33
brundlefly
For sustaining cymbals, assuming you can't just find a better sample, try adding compression. For humanizing, I have to recommend real-time recording from a pad/keyboard controller. The time spent learning to play and record parts live will eventually pay off in reducing the amount of time you spend putzing around in the PRV, and the results will always be more musical. 
2013/12/06 15:57:22
markyzno
+1 brundlefly
 
I use a fairly cheap Midi drumkit and play from either Battery, Addictive or Kontakt Drums, then i'll tidy up the groove after in PRV with NO SNAP.
2013/12/06 16:19:13
dubdisciple
+1 brundlefly.  A common compromise is to record the kick and snare with prv or step sequencer and hi hats in real time.  You can get away with kick and snare being robotic(eve nthough i would offset a few of those two) if you have some swing in your hi-hats and cymbals.
2013/12/06 16:31:21
markyzno
Groove Quantize can work sometimes...depending on the rhythm that is.
2013/12/06 17:05:39
Funkybot
What are you using for drums? 
 
If you're using BFD3 or something like it, then programming hihats should be as simple as adding the velocity events in once you get the timing right. If you keep all the hat events at the same velocity they'll never sound realistic.
 
Regarding cymbals, it sounds like you're talking about hearing a loud initial attack, then a quickly dying cymbal. What that indicates is that 1) you're using short or cheesey cymbal samples, or 2) you're using good samples but you may not be processing the kit in an appropriate way. Example: if you're doing a rock track, it's a good idea to send all of your drums to a Drum Buss in Sonar. On that buss, I'd include a buss compressor, and probably some EQ (if not additional processing). The compressor is the key here, as what happens is that when a cymbal is struck, there's often a kick underneath it. The kick will actually cause the compressor to duck, which takes out some of the attack of the cymbal, and causes the body of the cymbal to sound like it's sustained. The more compression, the more extreme the effect. Again, though, having good cymbal samples are key to this working.
 
Now repeated cymbal hits (a drummer riding on a crash for instance) is a little different. The attack of each sample often comes through loud and clear in a very fake way. BFD3 is especially good at repeated cymbal hits due to the cymbal swell modelling. What it does is actually simulates the swelling effect a cymbal has when repeatedly struck, this makes the cymbals sound more washy (in a good way) and less static on repeated hits. As far as I know, it's the only drum software to do this. 
2013/12/07 10:06:57
meh
Funkybot
.... If you keep all the hat events at the same velocity they'll never sound realistic.
 



+1
2013/12/07 11:16:15
Blades
+1 to mostly variation of velocity (assuming a decent sample) for hats.  If your sample player has a variable hi-hat open (vs just opened or closed), adding just a little bit of variation on that will help as well.  With my vdrums, the openness of the hats is controlled by midi cc#4, so when I "program" my parts by playing them in, my foot naturally comes up just a little which makes the variation of cc#4 constantly changing.
 
As far as crash: it's really about the samples mostly.  You can process a crap sample and it will sound like a processed crap sample :).  Sometimes processing actually makes things sound worse.  If you are "riding" a crash, you might have better success to alternate the hits from one cymbal to another where the two samples are very similar so you don't wind up with the hits causing the sound to cut off with each subsequent one.
 
Hope that helps.
2013/12/07 12:10:53
Sidroe
The one thing that helped my hi-hat and ride cymbal parts is realizing that most all drummers tend to hit the downbeats harder just out of habit. In other words, in 4/4 time, beats 1,2,3,4 are always velocity-wise hit a good bit harder than the 1/8th or 1/16th beats between them. The key to getting any drum plugin sounding realistic is the velocity settings. Also, when you are using a velocity sensitive sampled kit, don't compress it so hard. Otherwise, you're going to lose the dynamics of the performance. Just try to keep your hardest hits from clipping. This will also help when mixing as well. Most great drum performances are chock full of dynamics.
2013/12/08 14:53:14
Bristol_Jonesey
I always strive to get the desired sound from my hats & cymbals, at least initially, without any processing whatsoever, just by utilising some or all of the features in BFD2, such as Damping, Tune, Dynamics. It's also important to set up the overheads properly as this alone can get you a really good, natural sound without even using the spot mics.
 
That should get you 80% of the way there, the other 20% can be achieved with a bit of HPF, maybe a tiny bit of HF lift (if they need it in the context of the mix) and maybe a bit of compression to tighten things up a bit.
 
This is assuming you've programmed the hits with sensible velocity & timing variations
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