• SONAR
  • ****FINAL MIX*** Then and Now: Final mix based on everyones suggestions. Thanks! (p.12)
2013/12/10 04:44:39
ston
dup
2013/12/10 04:44:46
ston
dup
2013/12/10 07:21:59
Bristol_Jonesey
Problem there ston?
2013/12/10 07:45:55
Guitarpima
Agreed, A huge improvement. To me the bass is about 3db to loud but as Danny say's, it may be an EQ thing. That's always been a big one for me. Getting the bass to sit just under the guitars and coincide with the bass drum.
 
Well done!!!
2013/12/10 08:05:48
Beepster
WARNING: The following post is mostly just blathering and personal thoughts about... uh... life, stuff, things, poop. Nothing particularly technical or interesting. ;-)
 
Hi, Danny. Sorry I didn't get the finished version up before you stumbled upon the the bass heavy mix. I was hoping to avoid wasting your time with that but I guess in a way it's good because you heard the boominess/excessive low end too which means I'm not crazy.
 
With the stripped out mids I'm not quite sure what the issue is. It could be one of many things or a combination of things. My first thought is maybe it's the master EQ again. To me the premaster sounded a little hairy and kind of harsh throughout the mid range but after running it through the BT Pultec plug and fiddling with it I found it to be more under control and smooth. I a/b it a LOT with the unfiltered version and two other eq'd versions I came up with and the original settings I had from last time (the ultra bassy one) seemed to be the right one. So much so that one of the alternate eq settings I dialed in blind ended up almost exactly the same as the original settings when I compared the two.
 
However I suspect there may be some darker and more complicated demons at work here. One being the absolute lack of equipment used while recording this. I know a good tech with a good sim and a good toolset should be able to work with almost any signal but I don't think I'm that good yet and the only high quality tools I have came with Sonar. Everything else is kind of middle of the road or crap. The guitars and bass were all direct line in to the interface and while the Scarlett does have a nice input signal it's still just line in. Next go around I'm going to try some different setups involving the  XLR outputs on my Line 6 head (which is still pretty crummy but it gives a much better clean tone base signal compared to straight line in), my old US Mackie mixer (nice pres and I can give the signal some body with the eq section and perhaps some bite with the trim) and trying out micing some of my actual amps which unfortunately are all transister but should give some more throw. Speaking of throw I've already started learning a lot more about TH2 and traditional guitar mic setups which translate VERY well to the cab section of the sim. With this tone I just kind of left the cab alone because... well I was quite sure what the heck it all meant, lol. I also have the full version now with some much nicer models and and better FX. I could have swapped all that out while remixing this but I wanted to treat it as though someone had sent me printed material to work with (which is why I bounced the drums to audio too). I basically tied my own hands for the sake of FORCING myself to take something crummy and making it acceptable because with the types of artists I'll probably end up working with that's exactly how things will go down. Dudes with some kind of multitracker in their basement sending me their stuff because they can't afford anyone else... lol. Basically demos and sh*t to start with. I actually have a huge backlog of that kind of stuff of my own bands here too that I have to put together eventually... but I'm getting a little off track there. Point is I really need to work on getting my input signals sounding better so I'm not straining to just get things sounding acceptable. It's definitely going to be an uphill battle because my mics are low grade/wrong kind, I don't have proper splitters for stuff, I don't have any fancy tube preamps or rack gear to condition my input signals, my one good guitar amp is an ancient transistor amp that is indeed quite nice but it's certainly not very versatile and there's just something... I don't know, kind of flat/weird about it... it's really hard to dial in to EXACTLY what I want. I have a couple little practice amps I might play around with but again transistor stuff and they're kind of cheapos with limited outputs. Even my guitars are kind of hard to work with for my style and they have some mechanical issues as well.
 
Now these aren't excuses and it certainly doesn't deter me like... at ALL because I am OBSESSED with this stuff now. It just means I'm going to have to get super creative for a while with what I've got until some cash starts flowing in again from somewhere. Sure it's a pain but I don't think I'd learn as much as a guy who starts out with all sorts of fancy gear at his disposal. I've seen dudes like that flat out refuse to even make an attempt saying it's "impossible!"... but nothing in this realm, IMO, is impossible. There may be compromises here or there and maybe certain stuff won't win any engineering awards but as I mentioned earlier some of my favorite recordings are crummy old demos and live stuff.
 
I aspire to be the ultimate turd polisher. Right now I'm more of a turd buffer or perhaps more aptly, assistant to the turd buffer's secretary. ;-p
 
Despite all that you know I aspire to great things and certainly don't accept "good enough" as something to aspire to and I think maybe that's why you and so many others here have taken so much time out for me and put up with my severe lack of education and plethora of eccentricities. In this case though I think just hearing you say that even for a "bedroom demo" that this is "good enough" is an achievement. It's time to move on, put some of those other plans I mentioned into practice and move forward. This turd is as polished as it's going to get for now without somehow pooping it out from scratch again (sorry... guess that's gross but the analogy was already in play.... lol).
 
Now it's about minimizing compromises. I know the program, I know the tools, I have a rough idea of the techniques so now it's a matter of using all that to get what's in my head out and on to tape. A good example of a compromise in this sense is that area you mentioned from 1:20-1:37. What I was hearing in my head was the solo being all ethereal with a phaser/chorus with the backing tracks remaining relatively untouched. Like the guitar was floating around disparate and scattered through space and then when the fast solos kick in it all comes slamming together into an ultra fine point like BAM! What ended up happening is I put the bloody phaser on and for some reason it completely washed out all the backing tracks and it sounded like ass... but I HAD to get that phaser part out of my head. So I dicked around and dicked around until I had that solo cloned and panned left/right slightly and at one point had a send going to a center panned bus (not sure if I took that out, put the phaser on one side and set it extremely low. It sucked. You can barely hear the phaser effect but it still kind of screws up the backing tracks. If I tried to push the phaser any farther it just turned into a mess. So, yeah... a severe compromise from what I was envisioning and what I could do in the real world.
 
And that's actually a theme throughout this and pretty much anything I've ever recorded. I've got all these great ideas in my head but I just don't have the experience or know how to do it so I try to find an acceptable middle ground. If I were sitting in your studio I could probably tell you what I'm hearing and you'd probably have it pumping out of the speakers within a few minutes. THAT is what I want to be able to do and although there were still a lot of compromises made here there were far less and when I wanted to try to get something out of my head I was just sitting there scratching my head. I knew what tool to use and where to start fiddling which is an ENORMOUS improvement than the old "twist things until it makes the noise gooderer" days.
 
Anyway, that's a whole lot of hot air to just say "I'm just gonna keep trying". Guess I'm just getting my own thoughts focused on what's next because there is going to be a LOT of trial and error in the coming months especially now that there is a whole new set of tools with X3 and the fact I actually have enough room to start using some of my hardware.
 
Also now that this is done I should start reintroducing some daily theory studies again so I should be able to get some more of that other stuff off to you.
 
Thanks again, Danny. I owe ya.
 
And again thanks to everyone else. No more re re re re re re mixes on this (lol). This one's going in the vault.
 
Cheers.
2013/12/10 08:13:12
Beepster
Thanks, ston (whoa that's a lotta dupes... heheh) and guitarpima.
 
I was kind of having a hard time isolating things in the low end with the pultech but yeah... I probably could have drawn out some elements and turned down others but I was angry at the LP64 so it got shunned. I'm sure we'll kiss and make up at some point but it has been a very naughty EQ. It deserves to be alone for a while.
 
;-p
 
 
 
2013/12/10 10:27:15
clintmartin
It sounded pretty good to me...and then Danny shows up with his pro ears. I'll have to listen to these again through my studios monitors.
2013/12/10 11:18:42
ston
Bristol_Jonesey
Problem there ston?




Grudamnit!
 
/picards
 

 
This forum software sometimes...  I spent about 20 minutes trying to post that this morning.  The post just wasn't there even after restarting the browser, refreshing the page etc.  I return just now this afternoon to try again and there's now a gazillion posts.  I'll try to reduce the clutter...
 
...clutter now reduced! :|^)
2013/12/10 13:22:17
Guitarpima
I was thinking, beepster, that you could try using a Carnegie chart. It's a chart that tells you what notes are what frequency. It's not something to totally rely on but it can help in isolating certain things. One thing I've noticed is that you can't just use one size fits all EQ settings. Each key will have it's own set of frequencies than any other. The chart can help. Ultimately, it's up to your ears though.
2013/12/10 14:15:41
Beepster
clintmartin
It sounded pretty good to me...and then Danny shows up with his pro ears. I'll have to listen to these again through my studios monitors.




Well I do actually hear what he's referring to but it's funny because it all becomes far more apparent when I listen to it on my crummy headphones and sh*tty laptop speakers as opposed to my reference monitors and studio headphones. I'm starting to get into the habit of trusting THOSE sources FAR more than my reference monitors/phones when I'm finalizing things. Like he talks about the bass in this version still being kind of undefined. In my "pro" gear it sounds awesome. However I can hear it through the lesser gear. There's some boominess still lingering (but far less) and that's probably because the bass boost I did on the eq is too broad and the bass part is just in general too broad when I could have honed in on the specific bass freqs and still gotten the clarity without the rumble. I could have defined the kick a bit more too this way. With the mids... yeah I do hear that too, kind of, but to my ears I think perhaps that low boominess and my attempts at clarity in the hi spectrum might be giving that impression as well as the somewhat thin sim settings and poor orchestration AND the less than great input signal. That's all just guesswork though and I'd never really be able to focus my ears and mind on that type of thing without his type of hyper experienced ears listening through good equipment. I did kind of go for a bit of a mid scooped sound too I guess which may have been an error.
 
Now when I go back to the good gear I can hear it and tweak it or start figuring out how to avoid this type of crap from the start. It's a little weird actually but if that's how I gotta do things then fine. I've got the time and pigheadedness to do it.
 
When it comes down to it if I had produced this a couple years ago I would have been WAY more than happy with the results and am still currently quite happy as it is but Danny knows through our conversations here and elsewhere that I want to go pro. Like ultra pro and he knows how much I value ultra intense critiques like this. I do end up hearing it and it does make me better. I mean look at how far this has progressed (IM perhaps not so HO) in the short time since I first posted this and the very minimal amount of time I've actually spent working on it since then (literally only about four hours over this past few days). The bulk of the "work" for me was trying to understand and listen for what was being said to me. Very little time was spent implementing those changes. Now I'm just taking all this info in the afterglow and trying to figure out how I will apply it to future endeavors. I'm still years or perhaps decades away from being someone that can really produce something that would pass for "pro" but this is a start and when it comes down to it I mostly just want to make music. I find engineering very interesting and all but I'd much rather just be able to write it, play it and get it the frack out the door sounding perfect without fiddling with all this. I just can't really afford to have it engineered elsewhere at the moment and no matter how good the engineer, gear or mastering job I'll never REALLY be able to get the EXACT sound I want out of my head unless I learn how to do it myself. To me guys like Danny and other highly skilled members her are able to do that because they just know what to do and I don't think any amount of bookworming can make that happen. You just gotta do it do it do it. That's where I'm at now. I'll pick up bits of knowledge here there and everywhere every day as I have been but the bulk of the work is done. Now I need experience... and LOTS of it.
 
I think NOW I'm going to finally wipe my system and reinstall everything from scratch. I've been holding off until I was ready to go full bore into things but it's time. By this time next year I'll hopefully have a big pile of material recorded and a bunch of my recordings from the "good ole days" cleaned up and ready for release.
 
I'm actually kind of excited now because I think I MAY be able to finally become an "artist" again. Good lord it's about friggen' time. lol
 
BTW I got your message. Sorry I haven't replied yet but thank you. I will indeed check that out. Try out that BT Limiter too and tell me what you think. I kind of like it but my experience with limiters is... well, limited. lol
 
Cheers, buddy.
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