Danny Danzi
When you mix and listen to a song 3000 times...when you hit that export button, you are done. If you weren't done, you wouldn't have pressed the export button.

 
I sometimes like to take an export of a mix downstairs to play on my hifi, or to work to play on my cheapish headphones, just to get an idea of how it's 'travelling'.  Admittedly I don't do that until I feel that the mix is close to being finished, but I find it useful, like getting a second (or third) opinion.
 

C. Room tuning, ARC, new monitors, sub, whatever you need...try your best not to procrastinate getting these things. With each one you implement, another black cloud leaves, I promise you.

 
This times 1,000.  You can buy monitors that cost a million pounds, but put them in a poor listening environment and they're worth less that a set of £100 monitors in a good environment.
 
Room treatment is not a practicable option for me, so I created for myself a stack of parametric EQs which corrected the room as best as I could manage to give a flat response.  The immediate difference in my mixes was night and day.  They sounded good in my home studio, on my hifi, at work etc. 
 
I couldn't get it quite right due to the way the filters started interacting with each other, so I've just decided to take improving my listening environment to the next level and have ordered the ARC 2 system; I think it is bound to do a better job at correcting for my room than I can with my ears and a bunch of EQs.
 

Beepy, I'm a rock guy (less Slayer and more Noise but the same rules still apply)
 
Your second mix is just far far too harsh and nothing can really breathe, Danny has hit many points on the head in his above post.
 
You need some good monitors (which I hope you'll use quietly) which will help you avoid some very harsh highs and lack of lows which are very apparent in your second mix....With these nasty frequencies bounding around, your composition suffers from being over produced.

Why even go there with mastering? Again as Danny says, if you have a nice flat mix leave it at that and send over to a friend who understands mastering a bit better?
 
Having said that, Like Danny I would never say anything to upset you and the above is merely my humble opinion.

Theres a good song in there if you can clean up your dynamics.
 
Big Love mate!!

Beep, I didn't read the other posts. Didn't want them to influence me. Here's my take. I listened on decent speakers. Not great, but not BS either.
 
The first one, which is the newer one I believe, sounded good until I heard the next one. Then I realized that the new one sounded too compressed to me. Just squashed together. The older one (the second link) had more detail available to my ears. More dynamics than the new one (first link).
 
The song is good! I like it. My type of music. But your lead playing was buried man. And it sounded good. But I had to strain to hear it. Get that **** out front!! You can play! Let 'er rip!!
 
I don't know enough to give mixing advise. But if this was my trk, I'd go back and try to work on eq everything again. What jumps to my mind is frequency masking. Things just on top of each other. And not as clear as they can be.
 
Oh I don't know if your using a "Loudness Maximizer" of some sort, but it sounds like it to me. Try and use that as least as possible to get rid of that squashed sound.
 
[edit]
I just read the other posts. And what I want to thank you Beep for is posting this. I never sat here intending to have a lesson, but that's exactly what has happened! When I saw Danny's post, and I saw that I had heard the same things he did, I realized that I am learning too!! I am progressing.
 
I 'thought' I could mix. All I needed to learn was to master. That would make my songs sound better. Then I read, studied a book on mixing (www.amazon.com/Mixing-Audio-Concepts-Practices-Tools) and that's when I realized how much I didn't know about mixing.
 
One thing I can say that's encouraged by Danny, is that we have tools. We need to know what that tool will do in this or that situation, before we apply that tool.
 
Danny says a lot of good things. I read every word. I wanted to read every word. Because I am willing and wanting to learn. And the only right way to do this, is to listen to someone you like, and follow their example, to teach yourself how to listen and use the tools!
 
[/edit]

Personally I think its really cool when we open up like this on a thread (and with respect).
 
Beep you have balls doing this and I wish you well!
 
Really cant stress how important Monitors are tho and well positioned ones at that, although...dont expect miracles at first...give it time, let your ears get experienced with the room/space and kit...play your tunes on other systems and then with experience you can compare and *find your sound*
 
It took me over a decade to find "my sound" and i'm still not happy (that doesnt help with loads of new kit being released all the time)

Best of luck and keep rocking!

markyzno
Why even go there with mastering? Again as Danny says, if you have a nice flat mix leave it at that and send over to a friend who understands mastering a bit better?

I think the problem Mark, is none of us wants to give up and send something to a friend. LOL! If I would have done that I may not be in the position I am now. BUT, I definitely had to learn when a mix should be considered a mastering candidate. With this economy and everyone just trying to enjoy their music when they can, we're always going to be trying to sort this out on our own...and rightfully so. However, like I said before, we need to know when a mix needs work before it hits the mastering stage.
 
In a nutshell, it's SUPER important for everyone to remember that a mix should be able to stand on its own to where you don't EVER need to rely on a master. That was the purpose of me sharing my little clip in the other post. Not to compete or compare against beeps, but to say "hey, this ain't the best mix...but it sounds pretty decent and stands on its own without any mastering."
 
Speaking of mastering, one of the disadvantages most of us have is we compare our MIXES to already mastered material. This in turn makes people master within their mixes. I wish there was a way to show people what a pro mix is supposed to sound like BEFORE it gets mastered. I'm talking major label stuff that is usually neutral so the producer and ME have the power to literally create the sound of the album. I've worked with quite a bit of that stuff, but no one ever wants to share their songs all naked like that. If you've ever heard that Bohemian Rhapsody multi-track that's been circulating, that's not mastered and is taken right off the tape machine. Nothing on that instrument wise is fantastic once you get past the whole "omg this is Queen!" syndrome. Proof of how important the mix really is as opposed to the master.
 
If people are mixing to mastered material (which has gone on since way before the beginning of recording in the bedroom) it really is an instant disadvantage in my opinion. The reason being, the engineering tactics of today sort of degrade music more than/differently than 20 years ago. In some ways, I love the sound of today. In other ways, it makes me cringe because it just sounds too sonic and non-musical. When you tried to mix to a mastered song in the mid 70's to late 80's (which I always felt were great times for production especially for rock) you weren't fighting insane volume, limiting and loads of sub lows. Though I wasn't really into mastering at that time, it would be my guess that the majority of the music put out during those times didn't end up drastically different once it was mastered. The reason being....it STILL sounded relatively neutral to me when it was complete and in my stereo.
 
These days, I got clients yelling at me to try and cop mastering curves from Nickelback who to me, have only put out a handful of songs that actually sound good on studio monitors or car speakers. They definitely excel on earbuds in my opinion. But again...anyone trying to get the sound they get is going to struggle unless they have a good grasp on how to control those sub lows they get on the bass guitar....and we all know how bass can be the death of us without the right listening situation.
 
Anyway, I just felt the need to elaborate a little more on this in case it may help anyone further as you raised an interesting point about sharing with a friend....and then, well you know, I start thinking about other things and another novel pops up. LOL! Sorry about that. :)
 
-Danny

markyzno
Personally I think its really cool when we open up like this on a thread (and with respect). [Grem edit: Bold]
 
Beep you have balls doing this and I wish you well!
 
Really cant stress how important Monitors are tho and well positioned ones at that, although...dont expect miracles at first...give it time, let your ears get experienced with the room/space and kit...play your tunes on other systems and then with experience you can compare and *find your sound*
 
It took me over a decade to find "my sound" and i'm still not happy (that doesnt help with loads of new kit being released all the time)

Best of luck and keep rocking!

I agree. Bought some decent monitors (KRK) and it took me about 3-4 yrs to get to where I knew how they translated out. I still am working on it. IOW, I ain't happy yet!!
 
Also, I would like to suggest, learn about standing waves and how they affect "your" listening environment.

I think Danny's quote that we try and mix to make it sound like mastered material is very poignant. In fact I would say its rife because what do we have to compare our mixes to? The references mixes we all try and adhere to are in fact mastered versions. The question is then, how to learn the art of mixing if examples are so hard to come by?
Bibs

This is going to be an epically looooong post filled with blathering, meandering rants and other beepsterisms. It's all more or less responses to stuff that's been posted, descriptions of my own thoughts, opinions and aspirations and more intricate detail as to what I think about this mix and what my next steps will be. Hopefully it isn't offensive (I just kind of went stream of consciousness here) as it is most certainly not intended to be.
 
That said, ALL of this can be completely ignored. All the relevant info on my new plan is at the bottom of this rant. I will divide the rant from the meat with a double line like this...
 
=======================================================
 
This is the rant...
 
Hi, kev, Mark, ston, Grem and of course Danny. Thanks again for taking a listen and giving me some things to look at. This post will get too muddled and long if I try to squeeze in replies to specific parts of specific posts so I'll just post some of where I think I should personally head based on your suggestions. Also I'll maybe try to explain a bit why I took the direction I did but obviously took too far. Not making excuses but more to give you guys an idea of how I like to hear things and why. Some of the weirdness might make a little more sense then.
 
So I've already PMd Danny to thank him and just give a quick reply about some stuff. Basically it was along the lines of that I do think I destroyed this in the mastering phase BUT there are indeed some mix issues I can now look at from different perspectives thanks to all the input I've gotten here. Also that when I get a chance I'll try to post the premastered version. Unfortunately the levels are REALLY low on that but in my attempt to give myself plenty of headroom I again probably over did it. I was also having a weird issue where even if I wanted to bring up the levels within the mix I was quite literally running out of room on my faders for some of the instrument. The drums particularly. I think this may have to do with the insane amount of layering I did on the guitars and bass. The drums just couldn't keep up. That is only speculation though.
 
Now with the limiter I know I screwed that up a bit. As I mentioned earlier I used the Boost11 plug (it's the only one I have AFAIK) and after a bit of experimenting I set it to only just touch the really loud peaks. This was a mistake I think. What I believe I should have done was turn it up to just before those peaks were hitting or getting rid of them in the mix phase with automation. That said... because it is all so low I'll still have to crank it. I kind of figured that with something like that you wouldn't hear the limiter unless it was actually limiting.
 
Sooooo... does the Boost11 limiter actually color the sound even if it is not limiting anything? If so then I have a bigger problem than I thought and would have to do far more work to get this up to a normal level. I should also mention that because of all this there parts that were overloading the PC Modules so again I had to go through and turn certain things down to avoid that. Not sure what the deal was there but again it probably had to do with the not layered tracks not being able to keep up with the layered ones. 
 
Next up is my reference track. As I said I was using a track from Slayer's Divine Intervention. I have always considered that to be excellent production value but now I'm rethinking that. I spent the morning comparing that track to tracks off their other albums (older and newer) and then against my little creation here. I was avoiding using something older like a South of Heaven track because although that's a great album it seemed far inferior production wise compared to Divine Intervention however I noticed something today and I really should have noticed it earlier. Although the bass and guitars on DI are much better sounding and the overall sound is cleaner the DRUMS are pathetic compared to South of Heaven. Like they are really thin and kind of low in the mix... kind of like my remix here. On SoH they are warm, thick and really in your face. This is a direct result of my ears constantly being draw to the guitar parts in a song. Because the guitars sounded better on my reference track I totally overlooked the weak drums. Don't get me wrong... DI is a monstrous album but it's nowhere near as good for drums as SoH. THEN I was listening to a more contemporary album by them God Hates Us All and frankly I don't really care for that album and to me the guitars are  kind of... IDK... I just don't like them BUT the drums are out of freaking sight. I don't think there is any way I could come close to that without a monstrous drum room, a monstrous kit, a monstrous player and a LOT more experience/better gear. It is something to strive for though as I move forward and it has been noted. I was also listening to a lot of other random thrash metal stuff some old some new and seeing what's what paying particular attention to the drums and how the mix was working together. Again many times the drums are just much more present than my reference track.
 
So long story short... I messed up by using the track I did. I also realized something... well rather it solidified something I kind of knew even when I was first recording this over a year ago was that I put down TOO many guitar tracks to fill it all in. This was because the guits just weren't sounding thick enough for me at the time BUT I could have corrected it in the mix phase. I just did not know enough back then to do that so I did what I know how to do... write extra parts. Now those parts are kind of part of the song and I don't want to drop them but I will be definitely keeping this in mind while arranging new material.
 
It should be noted though that this indeed was written to be ear candy for guitar players as well as a quick starter project for me to learn on. I mention this because I think some stuff that has been said relates to this. It wasn't meant to showcase the bass (or I would not have just doubled the rhythm guit) and certainly not the drums (because... well although it was played "live" it was on a completely foreign instrument to me... the padKontrol. If I had been playing it on a real kit THEN I would have tried to show off my drumming abilities a bit more). Not an excuse by any means but perhaps that will give a bit more context to where I was going with this. Kind of like you wouldn't listen to a Vai or Malmsteen track to check out the backing parts (but obviously for those examples... at least for Vai, you're still getting a lot more for your money than you got here with the Beeps Creep... lol). I do actually write and perform other styles... many other styles actually but guitar metal was where I started and what has always kept me pounding stages and getting clubs filled so it only made sense to start there in my mixing studies. It's just a lot easier for me to write and dial in guit parts than anything else so it took a lot of extra weirdness out of the equation as I learned the tools and concepts. Again not an excuse at all just giving a little more insight to how this ended up where it did.
 
The next thing is I may have actually ruined myself because of my choices of music I listened to for pleasure over the years. I love grit and noise and general chaos in my music. I'd rather listen to a garage demo or crummy live board recording than an immaculately produced radio piece. Most of the stuff I'm into is intentionally obnoxious. Lots of underground punk, metal, industrial, whatever. The nice stuff I listen to is usually ancient like old folk, country, early rock, blues, motown, jazz, etc so the production values are usually quite low by today's standards. In one way it's a problem because I know I need to be able to slick things up to be taken seriously as an engineer but in another way I want to say "F*ck it!" and crank up the saturation and load it all up with hiss and noise. A perfect example is the fact one of my favorite releases of all time is Dead Kennedy's In God We Trust/Plastic Surgery Disasters. The production values are HORRENDOUS but god damn do I love that stuff. Once the DKs started getting into higher production values like on Frankenchrist I just... I find it unlistenable. It's that crappy spring reverb or whatever it is they used back then and the cold sterile tone like they are performing in an empty gymnasium. A lot of potentially great music from that period was ruined IMO because of that crap. It's why I've always shied away from reverb in general and now am kind screwed because now I DO see the benefit of well executed reverb to help even a "dry" sound. I just don't know how to use it properly but will learn (there is reverb on this track BTW).
 
So again that's no excuse but when it comes down to it even if and when I develop the skills to produce stuff EXACTLY how I want (which this is a long way away from being) I think a lot of pros probably won't really dig it. It ain't proper but it's what I like. I would however NOT use my arsehole ears and tastes on other people's material unless they specifically asked but that is all moot because I'm years away from having total control over a mix (I'll get there though I SWEAR IT!)
 
Anyway, that's just rambling for those who may have been interested in where I was, where I'm at and where I'd like to eventually be and how the Beeps Creep has gotten to this point. Seriously though the master killed a lot of my work and it was stupid that I rushed that.
 
I don't really see what the appeal is with that first version though. No offense meant but man... I keep listening to it to see if I can hear what you guys like about it but I'm drawing a blank. The ONLY thing I think it has going for it is it sounds a little more natural and live which the premaster of the remix has as well (IMO but I'll let you guys be the judge). To me the original is totally washed out, there's no clarity, I can't hear the kick drum at ALL at most points, instruments fade in and out as everything fights for room... IDK... it's just a mess to me. I quite literally hate it and think it's an embarrassment. I mean the new one is messed up too but I just don't see the appeal of the original. It does certainly have more low end which I will correct in the new version but to me it is really muddy... like the bad kind of low end. I am however surprised at the bass sound in it. I don't remember the bass cutting that much originally but it is much more dull than I like so I guess if I had my druthers I'd find a middle ground between the clearer/crisper sound of the bass on the remix and more full/fat sound of the original. Bass to me though is a very strange animal and I just WISH I could afford the MarkII plug. There are no sims employed on these tracks because both TH2 and GR5 were not really helping. It is simply the line in signal and everything else was done with layering, EQ, compression and saturation.
 
The only other thing I guess I like about the original version is the cymbals and hats sound more natural but again that's because of me foolishly using the multiband comp in the master when it wasn't necessary and cranking the high end too much (in the mix and the master). However in the original even though they sound more "natural" it's kind of in a bad way. Like crappy stamped cymbals with chunks broken off of them giving that trash can lid sound. In the newer one they sound more like nice cymbals with good decay. They still sound like arse because I cranked them too much but not like cymbals I pulled out the garbage somewhere.
 
I guess... and I can hear it, is that the lows and low mids aren't stripped giving the overall sound more body and less harshness. I think when I get back into the new mix and execute my current plan I can fix that. Maybe disengage the steep slope hi pass on some or all of the bass tracks (yes I used a hi pass to try and get rid of any potential mud but maybe I want a bit of mud) and do some other stuff to bring out more body/bottom end.
 
Again I think I stripped much of that out in mastering though. Seriously I'm almost embarrassed to admit what I did with the EQ when I was trying to conform to the -3db per octave "rule"... but here goes. I used TWO multibands to make the freq analyst conform. One to get the curve close then a SECOND one to touch up. I knew I was being an idiot when I did that. I just KNEW IT but I couldn't help myself. I was so wrapped up in what was "proper" that I just... IDK... I lost all common sense. Same happened with the multiband comp. It wasn't helping but I left it in anyway. Now it's a mess. It was probably still whack before I did that but not nearly as much. I just had other stuff on my mind and tried to push it out the door.
 
Danny is completely right when he said I just was not ready for a mastering attempt and quite frankly I think the premaster did NOT need any major mastering at all. Just some slight tweaks and a volume boost. Anything else should have been done in the mix but it was one of those Bill O'Reilly "F*ck it! We'll do it live!!" moments.
 
Live and learn, eh?
 
Anyway... I hope that noone is offended by my own input on this track because I know I may have countered some people's opinions but even though I am still learning and all of this has been immensely helpful in the end there are certain things where my own preferences as far as sound have to take priority. 95% of what has been said has been spot on but there are a couple things that for my personal tastes and needs just don't really work so I thought I'd just clarify what I like and what I don't. I don't think that 5% is "wrong" it's just not really where I want to go or what my own little fanbase would want to hear. It's also why I like dealing with Danny because although his stuff is perfect it isn't actually how I would do things for certain stuff like this. He is immaculate perfection whereas I am gritty chaos. Ideally where I want to be is where HE is at with the super clean and clear stuff then bend it into the disgusting mess I like. Unfortunately where I am at now is starting out with an unintentionally disgusting mess... which for my audience would probably work but I'd rather be able to control the noise. Not have it control me... know what I mean?
 
=========================================================
 
This is the meat! ;-p
 
 
So... here's the tl;dr...
 
Based on everyones input and my mulling over of this issue since I originally posted this here is what I am going to do... to start with anyway.
 
1) Master: Dump that mastering job. It was stupid and never should have happened. I will fix things in the mix, get rid of that stupid multiband compressor (in favor of a much lighter general compressor or no compressor at all), get rid of the double EQ I did (in favor of a single very LIGHT linear phase EQing just to draw out/cut any good/bad stuff which should be minimal after the re remix), NOT allow the limiter to touch the signal at ALL and try to get my signals up in the mix instead. Basically not be an idiot and use my ears instead of a plug and bookworm crap to dictate what is happening.
 
2) In the mix bring down those obnoxious hats and cymbals and maybe lay off the compression a bit to get some of the more natural quality of the cymbals back.
 
3) Take a look at the bass track EQs and try to bring back a little more of the bottom end from the original version without losing the grit/clarity of the new version.
 
4) Take a hard look at the drums. Particularly getting the kick and snare to be more dominant in the mix even if it means cloning the parts, extracting some MIDI and using extra samples (these are bounced to audio MIDI tracks... I wanted to work with raw waves). I may not mess with the toms because frankly I don't give a crap about the flourishes. I just want to get the general mix together. This won't be released publicly unless I totally rerecord it and frankly I think the tom samples were crummy anyway or at least could have been doubled but they'll do for now. Don't want to spend forever on this. Obviously again the hats and cymbals need to be reigned in and freed up a bit.
 
5) Maybe take another look at the reverb sends to make sure that isn't contributing to the excessive hi end. I think I may have been a little heavy handed with it and didn't really spend as much time as I should have in that area.
 
To me... well I know the guitars COULD be tweaked a bit more (as a guit player they can always be tweaked a bit more) but I don't think they are bad as far as tone. I'm moving on to bigger and better things as far as my guitar tones anyway so they can remain as is. Maybe I'll draw out a little more bottom end but only if it doesn't conflict with other stuff.
 
Those are the major things I'll be looking at... there are a few other minor ideas I have but they aren't really worth mentioning as I'm not sure I'll even go there and this post is already wicked long.
 
Thank you again guys for all the advice and for listening. Everyone has been MORE than helpful here and really any time you guys see me post stuff for perusal I never want sh*t candy coated. If my feelings get hurt that's my own damned problem. I'm not here to have my ego placated... I'm here to learn.
 
You guys rock!

markyzno
Personally I think its really cool when we open up like this on a thread (and with respect).
 
Beep you have balls doing this and I wish you well!
 
Really cant stress how important Monitors are tho and well positioned ones at that, although...dont expect miracles at first...give it time, let your ears get experienced with the room/space and kit...play your tunes on other systems and then with experience you can compare and *find your sound*
 
It took me over a decade to find "my sound" and i'm still not happy (that doesnt help with loads of new kit being released all the time)

Best of luck and keep rocking!

I gotta stop reading your posts....you keep inspiring me to write more! Hahahahahahaha! Well said up there....opening up is great and it's even better when you have no fear. That's one of the things I tell my recording students. They get all insecure like they think I'm judging them like a shrink. Ok, I am...but don't tell them that..lol....BUT...it's not in a "you suck hahahahaha" way. If I don't find out what's wrong, nothing changes. So the cool thing is no one should ever be ashamed to post a song on a forum. I whole-heartedly disagree with anyone that says "you need to have thick skin" when it comes to asking for help on a forum. No one gains a thing by someone else annihilating them into submission or to the point of deterring them from progress. I see no need for anyone to sugar coat, but there's no need to bash brains in either. A person in need will learn a heck of a lot more if you tell them the problem and how to fix it without acting like a god.
 
Monitors: you share my pain Mark. It took me 15 years to suss it out man! All the while, I knew in my mind I was a decent engineer with a good set of ears. But you're like trying to run a race without any food or water in you. You're just not ever going to win like that. That's how I always felt. It wasn't that I had bad gear. I had good gear, I was just missing important elements that made such a difference, it changed my world. Between my sub, ARC, knowing what to listen for as well as being taught what to listen for from a mentor.....it all walked hand in hand. One without the other and I was toast. Or it would have taken longer for me to "get it" so to speak.
 
A good test for anyone questioning their monitor environment is....call a pro studio and see if you can work out a deal with them to where they charge you a a small fee to just listen to material you have recorded on THEIR monitors. They may just say "come in during my lunch break and bring your tunes". Listen to pro stuff you like on their monitors first to see how it translates, and then listen to 3-5 of your songs. As you listen to your material, write down all the things you hear wrong with your stuff. When you get back home, listen on your monitors and see if you hear the same things you listed as wrong. If you do not, or are struggling to hear them, the problem is in your monitoring.
 
That's what the guy that taught me did to me. I'd go to his studio with my latest mix in hand. He'd listen to 10 seconds of it, tell me it's crap, throw a pen and pad at me, sit me in his chair and say "now write down what's wrong with this". When I was done he'd say..."you wrote all this down and heard it here, why can't you hear it at home?" Simple...I was missing a sub, my room needed work and I had 0 monitor correction. How do you win? Right, you don't. PERIOD. He had room tuning, monitor tuning, a sub, no wonder I could hear. People just don't understand how important this is. I know it's sometimes expensive...but me knowing what I know now, as God is my witness I'd stop doing this before I'd go through all the guesswork of trying to hear things or compensating for things that don't exist. I was literally ready to sell all my gear. That's how frustrated it made me. The last thing anyone wants to do is come home after working their day job, put in 5 hours doing something you love, you bring the disc to work with you on your way in the next day, and throw it out the window after listening for a minute. Anyone have that happen? Whew, I have all too often. You'll get fair results with headphones....but you'll never make the right calls until you get good monitors that are set up for making the right calls.
 
At the end of the day we have two choices, get the right stuff when we can afford it or we try not to take it so seriously while accepting this is where we are now....it's not necessarily where we'll always be....so there's no need to get frustrated. We can't run a marathon and expect to win if we don't eat....we can't expect to mix with good results if we can't hear. :)
 
-Danny

"The last thing anyone wants to do is come home after working their day job, put in 5 hours doing something you love, you bring the disc to work with you on your way in the next day, and throw it out the window after listening for a minute. Anyone have that happen?" 
 
This was me for far too long!  Decent pair of monitors, wee bit of treatment and ARC, and I have done away with that particular brand of pain.
 
Also, thanks everyone for a great thread.  Inspirational and helpful.