• SONAR
  • ****FINAL MIX*** Then and Now: Final mix based on everyones suggestions. Thanks! (p.7)
2013/12/05 10:55:39
AT
I listened to a couple of the versions - not really sure which is which.
 
But one thing you should pay attention to, Beep, is the various opinions on the songs.  early better, late better, they all are good and all versions suck.
 
It is a process, and the important thing is to find what you think sounds good.  I don't do metal, don't like it much, but it seems you've got some good stuff and, in the course of the last year, have made improvements and also made many of the mistakes we all do.  It is all about learning.  And mastering shouldn't ruin a mix or fix it, just like you can't fix it in the mix.
 
I forget which DP it was, but he always asked a prospecitive camera assistant if he had left the lens cap on during a take.  If the assistant said no, he wouldn't hire him, figuring everyone did that at some point and didn't want his perfect take ruined.
 
2013/12/05 17:00:24
Danny Danzi
jb101
Remember that you don't have to compress everything.
 
One way of working is to attempt to get a static fader mix, and listen for which instruments are still making you reach for the faders toturn up and down, and then compress those.
 
It's worth a try.




This is golden advice from brother jb, Beeps. To be honest, like I said in one of my novels, less will always be more. Here's an example. If I play a bass on one of my songs, and then my bassist Joey plays on the same song....the first thing you notice is, I need way more compression than Joey does. The reason being? He makes love to the darned thing and plays it correctly where I feel I play decent lines, but don't have that execution. Kinda like...if I played a piano and then got Janet to play the same part for me. I play fairly well, but Janet rocks the piano like we'd rock a baby to sleep with precision and touch.
 
The same can be said for all instruments in a mix. When something is played and recorded correctly, you may not need much compression or eq. I'm serious when I say all this to you. When a major studio puts something out, they don't sit there and mess with instruments  for days trying to make them work. Nor do they eq the instruments in such a way that they no longer sound like what they originally printed.
 
This is where lots of home recordists are missing the boat. The better your sound is, the less processing you have to do all across the board UNLESS you are going for something specific. Remember...cause, effect and reason. Compression is one of those animals that will always be a mystery in certain aspects of mixing. I say that because there will be times where you simply don't even know you're using it and can't tell if it's making a difference or not until you kill it and listen to the instruments you were processing on. Example...
 
When I compress my high gain guitars, I try to stay within -2 to -3 in gain reduction using anywhere from a 1.5:1 ratio to a 4:1 ratio. The amount of outboard compression I use going in determines how much ITB (in the box) compression I use after. A few years ago, for the longest time I was using a hardware compressor going in at 1.5: and -6 threshold setting which was taking away about a dB and a half of gain at -6 dB peak. This made me compress a bit more ITB once the guitar was recorded because I just conditioned the signal going in....I really didn't compress it the way I would for use on a song.
 
These days I'm running a different hardware compressor where I'm just using some over-easy compression from a DBX 163 pulling out about -1.5 dB going in at -6 dB peak. The DBX compressor in this situation is subtle and isn't harsh as it has no ratio, attack or release. It behaves a bit differently than the other comps I have. So when I use this particular compressor, once the guitars are recorded I can use a 2:1, 3:1 or 4:1 ratio on a Sonitus and just tighten things up a bit IF I need to. But if it sounds good and the guitars don't disappear or walk on anything else uncontrolled, I'll leave them as they are. BUT...they end up on a guitar bus, so I'll most likely compress them with a UAD Precision bus comp just to tighten them up as an entity. That little comp just does wonders for me and sounds great.
 
Cymbals: The thing with cymbals is...they are a very dynamic percussion instrument. So you really don't (at least I don't) want to compress them much if at all. To be honest brother, I have only had one job where I have compressed cymbals. To me they are just one of those instruments that don't sound good with compression. I'd rather manually automate and level them over using any form of compression. That said, I DO run a light compressor on my drum bus. But that pretty much just keeps the whole kit tight. You can't hear cymbal resonance or squashing. I'm just using enough to tighten up the kit so nothing strays and jumps out unless I want it to. It's sort of like the prison guard thing again....the "don't cross this line" type compression that isn't as strict as a limiter or a hard comp, but you sure can tell when it's off.
 
You shouldn't have to gate those cymbals. I have them here and think they are awesome. I think you may have had some compression or a multiband messing them up along with having them too loud. Stay away from p-comp if you're doing it as well as excessive compression or MBL's for now just until we see how you fair. THEN we can experiment with the other stuff. If you have to do anything, cut the ring down on those cymbals so they don't sustain as long...but you shouldn't have to gate them out.
 
I feel the same about toms actually. They are so dynamic, I only lightly compress them when I have to and try my best to automate/manually level them instead because it just feels and sounds better to me that way. There are no rules...you do what you feel. But like jb says, not everything needs compression. Sometimes you suck the life out of an instrument by adding it...especially if you're using it to the point of hearing it.
 
Sometimes it's working and you can't tell. That's the object unless you are going for something specific when you want to hear that compressed sound. Picture compression like this....let me see if I can better explain this...
 
You're a runner. You have some pain in your legs. You know that when you run today, when you run hard you will feel it during and after. However, if you run with these specially made braces (which in this case would be our compression) they will stop you from over-exerting your abilities and will make your strides consistent because they are governing your flawed legs. You will run a little slower in speed (like compression will make your instruments more controlled and consistent and may lower volume a tad) but you will not notice this the speed loss and will make better time because of the consistency.....understand?
 
Sort of like lifting weights too. If you have horrible form, it matters not if you can bench-press 300 pounds. The guy with perfect form pressing 200 that is perfect in execution is the one that will see more results and less injury. No compression....chance of injury to the mix. Proper compression...consistency and a healthy mix.
 
Compression does its best when you can't hear it yet you know it is taking out a certain amount of over-all gain. "Well how the heck do you judge something you can't hear Danny?!" Hahahahahaha! I think I've been asked that question more times than I care to think about. :)
 
The key is to jack it up first to where you CAN hear it while experimenting with the attack and release. This shows you how the compressor will react. Between your ratio, attack, threshold and release, you start to hear how the compressor works on that instrument. Your attack tells the compressor how fast or slow to hit depending on how much threshold you are using in the negatives (the threshold controls how much compression you actually hear) along with the ratio you select. Smaller ratios yield less heard compression even when you jack the threshold. The bigger ratio numbers allow you to hear more compression when you jump on the threshold. The attack then really comes into play because you can select immediate compression, or a more relaxed compression. Release is how long or short (sustains or cuts) the comp reacts before it triggers again.
 
So when you jack things to the extreme and experiment, you know what to listen for. The object there once you set it all up, is to take away a little at a time until the compressor is working yet is not audible to the point of hearing artifacts like pumping, breathing, things sustaining, or being too transient "percussive". It's one of those effects you just have to mess with until you find that happy medium. Sometimes you need to hear it (in situations where we want to use it as a transient designer) and other times we just need it to tighten things up. Other times, you may WANT to hear the pumping sound. But you have to experiment because each instrument you use it on will bring on a different set of circumstances and you have to know how to treat them.
 
Some cool rules of thumb for you that may help with ratios. Always set up your ratio first so the compressor behaves as it should when you jack up the threshold. You'll back the threshold down once you get what you need...but always have a rough starting ratio. Try to think this way..
 
1:1 to 2:1- These ratios are good for times where you just want to keep things tight where the instrument is either not one that needs much compression or the person playing the instrument really knows how to work it. For example, the bass player scenario I set up for you before. A good bassist that has the right pull on the strings that uses his fingers dynamically may fall into the 2:1 or maybe 3:1 ratio taking out about 4-6 dB of gain via threshold depending on what you hear and see meter wise. If a guy plays with a pick and is aggressive, most likely nothing in these ratio ranges will work. These ratio's are also good mastering starting points. 2:1 being a favorite. But again, you have to let the material dictate this.
 
3:1 to 4:1: These are the most popular in my realm. You can pretty much use ratio settings of this nature on everything. This allows the compressor to be more apparent when you jack up the threshold than what you heard at 1:1 or 2:1. 3:1 is awesome for acoustic guitarists, toms, pianists, wind instruments and percussionists that literally play for the song dynamically. Again, you'd just be sort of policing them and not doing anything crazy.
 
4:1 is the most popular electric high gain guitar setting that seems to really work well. In today's times though, this has changed because compression seems to be the effect of the 2000's so people are abusing it. I'd say for the music you like as well as what you're going for, start with 4:1 on your guitars, 3ms to 6 ms attack time depending on when you want the comp to hit, 200-450 ms release depending on how you want the compressor to react and re-trigger. 4:1 really does work well on most things but can be a bit abrasive on certain instruments so be careful. I find it works well for me on electric guitars, snare drums where I am creating transient effects, kick drums with transient effects, back up vocal stacks, guitar bus layers, transient type percussion that my lash out, brass, strings, woods and really just about anything. But you can't just use it because it's a popular setting. Each instrument needs its own love and you may find that a stronger ratio may be better...or maybe even something lighter.
 
5:1 to 6:1: I really like these ratio settings for vocals but it depends what compressor I use. For example, the results I might get on the Sonar bus comp would differ from the results I'd get from my NEVE 33609 which I can jump on without massive artifacts. This is why we have so many compression choices. One size does NOT fit all no matter how good the compressor is. These ratio's are also good for bassists like me that may be a bit more percussive with their bass attack/execution. I use felt picks to soften the pick blow...but I can still over-do it execution wise. So I usually fall in the 5:1 to 6:1 ratio range. This works well on horn stacks as long as you don't pump up the threshold too much. You can pretty much make any compression ratio work...you just have to really dial it in and know what to listen for.
 
7:1 to infinity: I've not used anything over 9:1 to be honest because it's never done anything to make me say "I need this here". I don't know that I have ever even tried a compressor that high up to be honest. But I've used 7:1 to 9:1 quite a bit for clients as well as for compression effects. These ratios help with smoothing severe transient type material as well as creating transient type material when needed. For example, a bassist that uses a heavy pick that may be sloppy and inconsistent. You'll mess with attack and release so that you cut that nasty transient out of his playing to soften the blow. You may have to run an insane amount of threshold here and boost the volume so that he's evened out which will lower his volume, so you'll need to turn up the output and bring him back in the mix. Of course you want to stop recording a sound like this at all costs IF you can...but there may be times where a client sends something to you that is just recorded like this. Compression can really smooth out stuff like this. But thankfully, we have the Sonar Transient tool and other goodies that can help us to soften harsh transients. But me being old school, I often reach for a compressor first as it just sounds a little more natural to me. :)
 
These ratio's are also really good for making drum kits pump hard in a parallel compression situation. The object of p-comp is to mix a wet squashed sound with the original signal and mix the two. I like to do this with 2 compressors so that you have one that is tightening up my kit, the other is slammed. You mix in just the right amount of "slammed" and it can make drums sound a bit more lively. The problem here is...everyone seems to think "if I can't hear the slammed effect, I'm not using enough" so they abuse it.
 
These ratios are also good for special effects compression...meaning just that. The effect of compression when you want to hear it. One last thing....
 
When listening to compression, toggle it on and off. Make sure you do NOT lose volume or boost volume from your original signal unless that's something you want. You should hear no signal boost or cut with the comp on or off. If the comp on is louder than comp off, lower the comp output. If the comp on level is lower than comp off, raise the output of the comp until it matches. You should notice the sound being tighter when it's in the mix. You may not notice a thing if you solo up the track. What you want to listen for is lashing out or if you are constantly raising faders. You should be able to make your mix sound so good and consistent, even if something is low in the mix, you still can hear it at all times without struggling. If you are ever struggling to hear something....there's a problem either with frequency masking, lack of compression, an un-eq'd effect or even a pan issue on that instrument in how it may be getting along with the others.
 
Hopefully, some of this will really get you (and others) on the right track Beeps. I know some of this you already knew, and some you may have been questioning. At least now you may be able to put it into perspective coming from a normal guy that is trying as hard as possible to explain this stuff in a language anyone can understand. :)
 
Uggh, another novel. So sorry brother(s) but I gotta seize the moment when I have it to try and make a difference for the better around here. :-P
 
-Danny
2013/12/05 17:36:33
Beepster
Awesome. Thanks again, Danny. Just making my dinner so I'll check this out tomorrow but it looks very helpful.
 
And anyone who cares not for Danny's "novels" can go pee up the proverbial rope. Thar be gold in them thar posts!
 
Cheers.
2013/12/05 18:35:23
stevec
I dunno, Beeps..  putting together "peeing up a rope" with "gold" just don't seem right.  
 
Showers aside, yup, there's lots of good compression info in Danny's last post.
 
2013/12/05 20:50:17
clintmartin
Well it took me a couple of hours, but I've read every word of this thread. First off I would like to say to Beepster...Very cool song and very good playing. Second, your getting there a lot quicker than me! I have remixed the same songs a dozen times and I'm about to start from scratch again. I'm reading and trying, but I suffer from some of the same problems. Next year my listening environment must be improved if I'm to capitalize on what I've learned. Danny it can't be said enough how much your input is valued here. For a guy to take as much time as you do, just to help us get better is...well, it says a lot about your character my friend. This has been one of the most helpful threads I've read here at the Cakewalk forum.
2013/12/05 21:41:31
mettelus
+1 Danny has invested a LOT of time in posting here and it is most appreciated.
2013/12/05 21:56:46
sharke
Great post on compression Danny, I learned a lot!
2013/12/05 23:05:31
Danny Danzi
You're welcome guys...glad to help out. My apologies for being so wordy and causing some of you hours of reading....but I'm not sure how to talk about this stuff any other way. To me, the more light we can shed on the subject, the better instead of those that drop a few lines that leave you in the dark, and go.
 
Clint: thanks for that. I made a deal with God years ago....if I ever got in a position where people would value what I had to say....I'd try to give back and help out as much as I could. When I was learning about music and recording etc, every time I asked someone something deep, I got the same generic responses. "Hey how do you do this on guitar" and get an answer like "practice kid" instead of "if you do this, this and this while practicing and make sure as soon as you try to go fast and mess up that you slow back down and go for slow and accurate over fast and sloppy, you will get what you're looking for."
 
The same with recording questions. Like people think they need to keep this mystique going on. Pff....we're all stuck in this world together. Make the best of it I say...especially if you can form a team of brothers that help and bounce ideas off of each other. When I do my video recording lessons for people that hire me, I share every trick I know if a song calls for it while showing examples and helping them identify things. I could care less if someone steals or shares what I have already borrowed from others. :) Now mastering....I sort of keep that side to myself because I do have some really cool things that I do that I like to keep to myself that I've sort of come up with over the years. But recording, totally different animal.
 
I have always loved helping people. I'm just a bit more selective these days though because one thing about the help business....it can come back and bite you really fast and when it does, you sort of clam up on everyone. Then people that do dig what you have to say suffer and that's not fair either. But I'm always on the look-out for people in need that seem like sincere human beings. I don't give out advice as freely as I used to, but I'm always lurking and try to help out when I can. Beeps has always been a good guy and has done quite a bit for me and has always tried to be helpful to this community, so I wanted to return the favor in hopes he would learn a few things and anyone else reading could enjoy a few things too. At the end of the day, we're all here for each other really as long as people continue to be cool about it. :) Thanks again.
 
-Danny
2013/12/05 23:53:08
ohgrant
Great stuff Danny!
As far as the production end of it, I defer to Danny for judgment on that. TBH I do prefer the unroasted version a tad better.
    For the content, I offer a salute from a former metallurgist with a taste for the dark side.  Really cool & interesting piece Beep.
2013/12/06 04:43:54
Wookiee
Hey Beep you did post this in the songs forum as well might be good to see what some of those visitors had to say.  (Just remember I am an alien visitor from a galaxy far far away )
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