• SONAR
  • Motion Picture workflows (p.2)
2013/10/02 00:37:48
Mirrodin
Thanks! Interesting video, especially about workflow on network series where you have a smaller, more specific role.  It's always nice to see workflows for larger commercial jobs like a series or full length feature (noteably higher end where your function in the pipeline is very specific).  Knowing about streamers and punches and breaking up the work into smaller segments is very useful!
On my project I double checked my timecode roll and from beginning to end it matches.  However on playback when there's too much processing and audio dropouts aren't occurring the sync starts to drift, and checking timecode is a lie because it still matches between Sonar and the picture.  In my case I have the entire project both video and audio, everything is within my facility so I have no need nor the time to spend breaking apart and rendering all the various cues and scenes and elements.  I compiled the complete score in stereo in a separate project and that worked just fine, but that was stereo.  I imported the score to the main sound project and am just upmixing the stereo music into the surround panorama.
2013/10/02 01:17:58
dubdisciple
As of now the video features of X3 have not changed, but Cakewalk staff have mentioned that  there will be upcoming changes in a free update.
2013/10/02 02:05:20
LpMike75
I love Sonar for composing and writing/recording music, but I feel it would be a nightmare to do Audio Post with.  In ProTools you can 'snap' to all sorts of places, like the end of a clip, start of a clip, highlight and cut to the end of a clip from now time, highlight and cut from now time to beginning of clip without touching your mouse etc.  Lots of options.  That's not even mentioning the horrible video handling of Sonar, which is a pretty big issue if your going to do Audio Post Production.
 
Doing ADR takes and naming the individual clips sequentially is easier in Pro Tools as is setting up the pre-roll for a punch in on the ADR takes.  (Beep-Beep-Beep_GO)
The routing in ProTools also makes things easier when you are going to mix down to stems.  You can output a track to multiple places with a key combo.
 
I am not bashing Sonar, just pointing out that Sonar is NOT a audio post production DAW (I only touched on a couple reasons).  If you have Pro Tools 10, I would use that for Audio Post instead of bashing your head against the wall with Sonar. 
 
Sonar is awesome for music creation, recording, included plug ins, soft synths, etc, but it would be difficult if not impossible to have any kind of efficient post audio workflow with it.
 
 
2013/10/02 02:46:59
Mirrodin
I cannot for the life of me work with PT10.  I have it and the workflow would take me far too long to learn.  I know it's the industry standard and all but everything feels just... so backwards and antiquated. BIGGEST headache is dealing with solo safe just to hear certain elements or groups of elements in solo.  Utterly pointless, I get the coding for why they did it. but honestly if their programming department had half a brain to implement a smart soloing feature to assist you with the asinine task of moving your mouse over to each group of tracks or busses to solo safe by presenting some sort of pop-up when you hold down the left click on a solo option to bring up the signal chain from tracks to busses to master faders etc. so that you can just solo safe in 2 clicks instead of 8, or 48 for the "those casual users who don't use it often."  I can do most of the other stuff in Sonar with ease and comping ADR and foley takes with the take lanes is super easy, not to mention instead of having to make multiple tracks I can just keep all of my FX bounce passes & original recording data stored chronologically in take lanes with the previous ones muted, labeled and notes detailing what FX chain I may have developed or used in that bounce pass, baked in, and archived.
 
However, I just hit a brick wall now with this project when I finally thought I had it.  I bounced stem mixes with my mix processing applied and they appeared in sync in the NLE on a quick glance so I rushed to get to the mastering phase. Bounce a master print and still as usuall, completely out of sync.  I have to backtrack now and try to get the audio out of Sonar in un-mixed stems and see if I can apply my processing manually with Sound Forge Pro.  Pro Tools 10 is so damn finicky on my system (win 7 pro x64, win 8 pro x64, Apple OSX 10.6 and above it fights with my interface - RME fireface 800 all the time, or just plain glitches out for no reason).  This has happened since 10.21 all the way through the latest 10.3.7 as of August.  I spend 99.9% of my time just trying to get it to open and stay open.  Otherwise I would have just brought this whole project OMF bounced into it and tried to figure out a mixing solution, I've never worked with PT in surround, I'd be slower than a rock trying to get into the workflow even if I could get it working. 
Sorry, Pro Tools and Avid just leave a bitter taste in my mouth.
2013/10/02 03:02:21
mudgel
Noel or Andrew did say there were further video enhancements due in the x3b update due before the end of the year.
Edit: I meant x3d of course.
2013/10/02 03:51:20
Mirrodin
I'll give it a chance as soon as it's possible.  I'd really love to see more documentation/reviews/overviews/in-depth videos... anything beyond all the press maelstrom.  I can only assume if Cakewalk has done some serious tinkering with the VST deployment in their architecture they may have addressed the issues with surround bridge I'm also assuming is the cause of all this frustration.  I've worked with 15-20 minute videos in the past on commercial and friends/personal youtube projects for the last couple years with Sonar, in fact this year I've done about 6 commercials with another 30 spot deliveries coming this week I need to take care of, they're simple to manage.  I have ZERO problems with sonar in these projects, but again.. they're all in stereo.
 An earlier commercial music score project in particular I ran into more than 300+ tracks with FX and tons of automation, and did mixing and mastering within the same project just to save time.  more than 97 plugins applied, only during mixdown did I freeze and bounce tracks, but bus FX and automation was still live during mixing and mastering.  a minute-thirty spot @ 96k/24 bit with a crap ton of tracks (386 in the project to be exact) to manage simply because I kept all my old takes and print passes running through external hardware with different automation ideas etc, kept and archived and/or muted.  My workflow for handling this is no different than what I've been doing for the short film project.  As I mentioned before, I'll utilize take lanes to bounce specific effects and bake my iterations IN place and just label the take lane appropriately.  If this workflow yields perfect results for projects of 1:30 duration to picture, as well as 10+ minute youtube cheapo projects with friends (again in stereo) with track counts just as high, why then am I running into issues only now if it's a video/duration/track-count/clip count issue?  So far the only thing that is being done differently is the fact i'm working in 5.1.  I've gone through all the preferences and set everything accordingly.  If I can get clear, intelligible and stable playback (no blatantly obvious issues with my audio hardware) I can rule out audio drivers/ASIO/hardware issues.  Audio drift is the only problem occurring for me.
I've finally managed to bounce completely raw stems and everything stays in sync all the way through.  Now I just have to figure out how to apply the mixing processing for each outside of Sonar, and then bring the processed stems in for Muxing, bounce out a pre-master, and then use the same process to apply the mastering stage processing and call it DONE.
2013/10/02 06:40:25
Mick Moreau
THIS is a thread that I hope will keep growing with great information!  Excellent!
 
2013/10/02 09:45:11
Jimbo 88
Mirrodin
On my project I double checked my timecode roll and from beginning to end it matches.  However on playback when there's too much processing and audio dropouts aren't occurring the sync starts to drift, and checking timecode is a lie because it still matches between Sonar and the picture.  In my case I have the entire project both video and audio, everything is within my facility so I have no need nor the time to spend breaking apart and rendering all the various cues and scenes and elements.  I compiled the complete score in stereo in a separate project and that worked just fine, but that was stereo.  I imported the score to the main sound project and am just upmixing the stereo music into the surround panorama.



If your audio is drifting out of sync there is something not set correct.  Your buffers may be too low or Sync in preferences is not set correctly. Perhaps your sound card needs updating or is not set correctly.  I have never had the issue you discribe.
 
Good luck, have fun. Scoring to picture is a blast. 
2013/10/02 11:59:42
garybrun
Thanks for sharing the video and Your workflow.
I work With Adobe Premier (was also a part of the beta team for that and for Matrox).
 
I have been a Cakewalk user for many years and I really dont want to learn other systems.
Granted most of the business was on Final Cut and Mac..  but I have these computers and programs but I'm more comfortable With my PC.  I know.. long story Mac vs Pc debate.

I dont want to spend more time to learn other programs  (I also have Studio One 2 and Reason and these are used for Reading other Peoples projects).
 
I am really looking forward to the up and coming video additions to X3

Things change so fast in the business and the demands for more Computing Power keep growing and I build my computers every 3 - 4 years. I can work With HD in real time and compress to mp4 faster than real time With my MATROX Rack  which means I don't need my Cineform any longer.
I was also Blu Ray ready 3 years ago and have never been asked for a Blu Ray Project yet!  :-)
The video side of things for X3 could be a bit of a game changer and it would be great to have a forum area dedicated to video Production.
2013/10/02 14:50:32
Biscuits
Totally agree with you there, more advanced video workflow implementation would DEFINITELY put Sonar in a whole new class; I know quite a few guys in post who would love to be able to break free of the ProTools shackles but as much as they might like certain aspects of Sonar, it simply isn't feasible for studio based post work.
 
I've been using it faithfully since ver 5 for a lot of picture work, but the amount of workarounds and trade-offs make it quite difficult and time consuming.  I just happen to love other aspects of the software so much I put up with it, but I don't think others would have that desire/luxury.
 
So, super excited about the upcoming announcements, I can only hope that at the very least we will soon have:
- The ability to at least slide a video track around in a project, if not even be able to trim/do basic edits.
- The ability to easily output HD video to an external monitor via something like a Matrox MX02 (or even the HDMI out of an internal video card).  I have been outputting SD DV via the Canopus for years, and it is clunky and fickle at best, not to mention looks horrible on a 50" client monitor.
- More codecs which are Sonar-friendly.
 
Fingers crossed!
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