Fair points, all of them.
A) No, I don't have access to Cake's code base. You could say I'm assuming there, but the fact is they have to spend a significant amount of time now to fixing features I don't even like. I know, they're not making Sonar for just me and the sun will rise tomorrow, I'm just saying anything they implement in the code base creates potential for screw ups, and it feels extra annoying when it's a feature I personally don't find worth the time.
B) I don't need them to bow down to Steinberg, and I think ARA, which Steinberg doesn't have, is a new standard with great potential. But the PC format is duplicating already existent features, and locking in features that used to be more universal. There are severe limitations within the PC concept that prevent it from ever becoming truly universal (or at least I hope so, I really don't want to have to adjust Izotope in there), so that means they're creating an extra standard to do the same thing. That means we get some plugs that only work in PC, and most plugs that DON'T work in it (or only through the point-defeating bin). It creates clutter and confusion and it, again, requires resources from Cake and plugin manufacturers that I wish they would spend differently.
C) Very true. I won't, anymore. The ones I like, apart from the EQ, are available as VST anyway. Hope FabFilter does Black Friday too, can't wait to get my hands on Pro Q!

John
The same thing could be said of the FX bin Steve. Still it seems to not have prevented anyone from using Sonar even with an intrusive FX bin. As for removing it versus not turning it on, it is effectively the same thing. Unless of course it can't be re-implemented. But then what idiot would want that?  
 
 

 
Do I take it that by your rather rude and patronising use of the word 'idiot', you are referring to someone who doesn't agree with you, or your way of working?
 
For what it's worth, I never use the Matrix, AudioSnap, or the Step Sequencer. It would make absolutely no difference to me whatsoever if these features were in SONAR or not.
 
You, however, might well use all three of these features.
 
By your skewed logic, does that state of affairs make me an idiot too?
 
 

John
A, I have no evidence of memory being use with a non active PC any more than a non active FX bin. B, Until CW fixes the problem we don't know where the problem lays. C, The PC has FX chains to allow inserting non PC modules in the PC signal path where you want it to be. Plus the PC can be post FX bin or pre. The notion that CW has plugins that can't used in other DAWs is not a new one and very normal in the DAW industry. A new standard, perhaps that relies  on VST.   The other thing that I see in posts is quality concerns. With various tests that have been done plus just careful listening this to me is an incorrect view. Third parties may charge more but that is no proof of higher quality.  If one does their homework and reads up on the CW's development of the PC modules what they promise they deliver. No different from other developers. The care that was taken is impressive to me.  Dismissing them because of prejudiced against a plugin coming from CW instead of some one else is only hurting oneself. Its both snobbish and foolish and wrong.

A) PC is loaded into memory whenever you boot Sonar. Otherwise it wouldn't be available for you to turn on. You're probably thinking of CPU power, but memory usage is kind of a given. Probably not a lot though, but still.
B) True, even though I think it's kind of a stretch to say "we have no idea" when ONLY the PC modules exhibit issues.
C) I don't mind modules being locked into CW. I mind that we can't use them outside of PC, forcing me to use PC fx bin or make the routing more convoluted. We can also only have one EQ in the chain. What if I want it pre dynamics and then after distortion? I appreciate that these are things that can be "worked with" or "worked around" but we're talking about how using PC should be better than not using it. For me, it's not, and that makes it fluff. Nice looking fluff, but still fluff.

I'm not dissing the modules because they came from CW btw. I really like CA2A, the Concrete Limiter has its uses and I like the QC EQ too. I don't think the console emulation is as good as NLS and I really dislike the other compressors from PC. I would not like to use them even if I didn't have other stuff to replace them with. This is personal preference of course. I just resent your implied insult about being "both" foolish and snobbish and wrong.

SteveStrummerUK

John
The same thing could be said of the FX bin Steve. Still it seems to not have prevented anyone from using Sonar even with an intrusive FX bin. As for removing it versus not turning it on, it is effectively the same thing. Unless of course it can't be re-implemented. But then what idiot would want that?  
 
 

 
Do I take it that by your rather rude and patronising use of the word 'idiot', you are referring to someone who doesn't agree with you, or your way of working?
 
For what it's worth, I never use the Matrix, AudioSnap, or the Step Sequencer. It would make absolutely no difference to me whatsoever if these features were in SONAR or not.
 
You, however, might well use all three of these features.
 
By your skewed logic, does that state of affairs make me an idiot too?
 
 

If you felt insulted you take things way too seriously. What you use is your business and I don't care much what is used or not. I was making a point. You do not have to agree though I think its pushing it a lot if one doesn't.  

John

It is a brilliant idea that has been perfected in the latest X3 incarnation. I don't believe it is a development that shouldn't invoke a little wonder. It is what makes the X series a sonic masterpiece.         

I know John said this four days, but couldn't have been said any better.

hellogoodbye

... I didn't expect this on a forum where you expect creative people with an open mind.

I thought the same thing years ago.😃😃😃

I was so naive!

Grem

John

It is a brilliant idea that has been perfected in the latest X3 incarnation. I don't believe it is a development that shouldn't invoke a little wonder. It is what makes the X series a sonic masterpiece.         

I know John said this four days, but couldn't have been said any better.

It looks nice when you take out the sentence where he called everyone who disagrees malevolent or ignorant.

No I did no such thing Sanderxpander. You in fact are deliberately taking what I said completely out of context. 
 
I was referring to posters that have been anti X series from day one. Some of which want a return to an 8.5 style Sonar. If you read anything else in what was said you are mistaken.  And trolls are malevolent. We have had our share. 

Fair enough, sorry to misinterpret. It seemed to fit with the rest of our conversation. My bad.

It is very important to me never to attack another member. I try very hard to follow that notion. I will attack ideas though and I think that I may use strong language in doing so but never will I go after a person and attack him or her.  
 
For example Steve is trying to attack me not my ideas. You will notice I do not respond in kind.