Anderton

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk

We have some very green support reps who jumped in at the busiest time possible and are trying to soak up as much as humanly possible. We're extremely dedicated to helping to make SONAR better and better and we haven't even revealed our full hand yet. We are a small team though, so from time to time we definitely do make mistakes.

You're not allowed to make mistakes. Ever. No one else here does 
 
Seriously, seems to me the major success of X3 has pros and cons. The con is that now a zillion people are beating it up and encountering issues, although I must say after looking through these threads that a lot of the issues are pilot error and/or unfamiliarity with a particular feature and have been solved. The pro is also that a zillion people are beating it up and encountering issues, so they can find things that might take a team of beta testers months to find, if ever. 
 
I really think the rapid pace of updates indicates the extent to which you take reports seriously, but there's no way your team is going to be able to fix everyone's favorite bug and/or feature enhancement in parallel. This kind of thing is a bit of a serial interface.
 
And I know you haven't revealed your full hand yet  

If I may chime in:
 
Software with this complexity of a daw will always have some level of unfixed things.
 
But as long as communication is going on - you are probably very patient, I know I am.
 
When communication breaks down - the buildup of steam starts.
It goes for any human situation - like Syria or users and vendors.
 
And look at the number of users letting off steam at KVR and other places - feeling neglected by Cakewalk. At least that is how I interpret it.
 
If I have to choose from being liked and getting things fixed - I select getting things fixed.
If we didn't like Sonar we wouldn't care.

stevec

grumbleweed4162

stevecThanks, Grum.   For whatever reason I completey missed that post!   Printing in 5, 4, 3, 2...      Edit: Are you just enabling Input Echo on both synth tracks?  Step six seems to indicate that, so I wasn't sure if MIDI out was still was a factor. 

Both tracks are blue. I discovered a while back it (in X2) both have to be on for this to work (I lost a lot of hair trying to figure out the lack of sound).I also just discovered the zeta output is the plain note and not the pattern (as I first suspected). Grum.

Right, that is Input Echo.   So if synth1 is playing back it's track, synth2 will also play that data as long as both Input Echo buttons are enabled... but I'm also assuming that this is only after running through the MIDI out steps in the first half?    Enabling Input Echo on multiple synths always allowed you to hear those synths played back via a controller - like a massive layered synth in real-time - but I've never used it for pure playback purposes.    Thanks! 

Just to be clear the thing causing the problem is not the Input Echo feature, it's the midi output feature. I'd imagine it doesn't bother all users as not everyone will use it but if a plugin only outputs midi then you want it to connect to something that accepts midi without having to resort to the shenanigans I listed in my earlier post.

Grum.

i'd like to see a maintained "known issues" post stickied at the top of the forum, it would save so much of this gnarly to-and-fro
 
"we're here because YOU broke something" ;-)

DDMF's metaplugin can be used to solve these problems. It's not just for audio networks it works great with midi as well. So I've for example not only used VSTi arps and step sequencers but also used instruments in Kontakt and ensembles in reaktor to trigger other VSTi's. I realize it doesn't answer the question of the bug or routability in Sonar, but it is a solution (at a limited cost) if needed. It basically turns the fx bin into a modular host of VSTi's and VST's so the possibilities are scary.
 
http://www.ddmf.eu/product.php?id=3
 
As usual, test that it works and that it's what you need before purchasing.
 
Edit: I've sent in a feature request to get something like this built into the effect bin, wouldn't that be neat?
Edit2: A problem with it, plugins "locked" to Sonar (Nomad factory f e) doesn't work in it. They think they are being used outside of Sonar.

beltrom
DDMF's metaplugin can be used to solve these problems. It's not just for audio networks it works great with midi as well. So I've for example not only used VSTi arps and step sequencers but also used instruments in Kontakt and ensembles in reaktor to trigger other VSTi's. I realize it doesn't answer the question of the bug or routability in Sonar, but it is a solution (at a limited cost) if needed. It basically turns the fx bin into a modular host of VSTi's and VST's so the possibilities are scary.
 
http://www.ddmf.eu/product.php?id=3
 
As usual, test that it works and that it's what you need before purchasing.
 
Edit: I've sent in a feature request to get something like this built into the effect bin, wouldn't that be neat?
Edit2: A problem with it, plugins "locked" to Sonar (Nomad factory f e) doesn't work in it. They think they are being used outside of Sonar.

Really cool suggestion, thanks for that.
 
I looked at these a while ago - and they don't host VST3 yet, I believe. The Waves stuff all become VST3 in Sonar and mixing VST2 is begging for trouble. But for all VST2 synths it's really good idea.
 
But they look cool, just like rackbuilder in Tracktion. Just drag-n-drop connections between synths, midi or otherwise.
 
So similar thing for effectchains in Sonar - and open up for free routing anywhere - without reworking the daw completely.
 
Email reply from DDMF in august:
"thanks for your email! Metaplugin indeed comes in two separate versions: one effect version and one synth version. There's one MIDI "channel" in each Metaplugin. And up to eight mono channels are available in Metaplugin, depending on how many channels the track has where Metaplugin is loaded. So if you load it in a surround track, for instance, you should see 6 channels (5+1). "

lfm
So similar thing for effectchains in Sonar - and open up for free routing anywhere - without reworking the daw completely.

 
Yes! The effectchains would be the natural place to build on.
 
I'm not sure if free routing within Sonar from within the chain would be optimal (depending on solution).
But something like senderella as an included Sonar plugin would be an elegant solution with the same result.
It would also open up feedback loops. I haven't been able to get senderella to work nicely with bitbridge though.
 
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/senderella_by_subminimal
 

lfm
Email reply from DDMF in august:
"thanks for your email! Metaplugin indeed comes in two separate versions: one effect version and one synth version. There's one MIDI "channel" in each Metaplugin. And up to eight mono channels are available in Metaplugin, depending on how many channels the track has where Metaplugin is loaded. So if you load it in a surround track, for instance, you should see 6 channels (5+1). "

Of course by one midi "channel" he means "one midi wire" in - so 16 channels in the traditional meaning. I know you knew that, but so no one misunderstands. I also think that both that limit and the audio channel  limit is in/out of the plugin, internally I think it's "open". Haven't checked but I would be surprised if it wasn't limited just by memory and performance.
 
As far as I remember there's really no difference between fx and synth except how it presents itself.
 
One problem I had was that Sonar ignored the 32 bit because of same VSTID, so I couldn't use 32 bit plugs.
Had to fix that "the hard way".

beltrom
As far as I remember there's really no difference between fx and synth except how it presents itself.

 
I asked if they had both - since you in Sonar, Samplitude and Studio One have either instrument or audio tracks - so you could use it either way you like - building effect chains on synths or just audiotracks as well. It would not list in both synths and effects otherwise.
 
But now the midi in on audio tracks should work in x3c so the difference is maybe minor loading a synth on audiotrack.
 
I will download that demo and check this rackunit out. Questionmark is whether it report correct latency to Sonar to line up stuff. It would have to be dynamic, kind of. If I remember right Soanr recalculate every time you start transport.
 

I for one support CW's (represented by Ryan) position that in the best interest of all of us, the best thing to do sometimes is to just shake hands, and move on.

That policy has solved many issues and has facilitated the growth of everyone involved.

Every 2-3 months this flares up again, I agree that cooler heads should prevail.
 
But, all these bugs and weird behaviour that are pointed out in literally hundreds of posts are just different manifestations of same enable midi out from VSTi bug. 
 
They have been described to death.  And I understand the frustration as I am frustrated too.
 
Once again, as long as you have only one vsti sending midi to one soft synth or drum rompler in Sonar X1, X2 and X3 you will not see any issues.  Once you try to use two VSTi out, you get weird stuff happening.
 
Watch all 5 minutes, this is the best description.  
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Pf1b6bTk8

grumbleweed4162

stevec

grumbleweed4162

stevecThanks, Grum.   For whatever reason I completey missed that post!   Printing in 5, 4, 3, 2...      Edit: Are you just enabling Input Echo on both synth tracks?  Step six seems to indicate that, so I wasn't sure if MIDI out was still was a factor. 

Both tracks are blue. I discovered a while back it (in X2) both have to be on for this to work (I lost a lot of hair trying to figure out the lack of sound).I also just discovered the zeta output is the plain note and not the pattern (as I first suspected). Grum.

Right, that is Input Echo.   So if synth1 is playing back it's track, synth2 will also play that data as long as both Input Echo buttons are enabled... but I'm also assuming that this is only after running through the MIDI out steps in the first half?    Enabling Input Echo on multiple synths always allowed you to hear those synths played back via a controller - like a massive layered synth in real-time - but I've never used it for pure playback purposes.    Thanks! 

Just to be clear the thing causing the problem is not the Input Echo feature, it's the midi output feature. I'd imagine it doesn't bother all users as not everyone will use it but if a plugin only outputs midi then you want it to connect to something that accepts midi without having to resort to the shenanigans I listed in my earlier post.

Grum.

Even though I've been a SONAR user for quite a long time, I definitely fall into the "rookie" category when it comes to MIDI out, so I appreciate the additional input.  It's possible that the bugs referred to are just making things a bit more difficult for me to grasp if it's not working the way I would expect... even though I'm not quite sure what it is I expect.   
 
Anyhow, I'll definitely continue to follow these threads since this topic certainly has my interest!