• SONAR
  • Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?[Reply from support - but not solved] (p.5)
2013/11/07 12:03:48
Grumbleweed_
auto_da_fe
Every 2-3 months this flares up again, I agree that cooler heads should prevail. But, all these bugs and weird behaviour that are pointed out in literally hundreds of posts are just different manifestations of same enable midi out from VSTi bug.  They have been described to death.  And I understand the frustration as I am frustrated too. Once again, as long as you have only one vsti sending midi to one soft synth or drum rompler in Sonar X1, X2 and X3 you will not see any issues.  Once you try to use two VSTi out, you get weird stuff happening. Watch all 5 minutes, this is the best description.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Pf1b6bTk8


The video is X2. X2 works as I would expect. X3 is not working in the same way as X2, I know this as I have tried the exact same set up in both (starting from scratch in both cases) and X2 works off the bat and X3 requires the deletion and redeployment of the slave device (the midi driven plugin).
Unfortunately nobody seems to reporting their own findings so I'm having to assume my method of getting around this problem is a practical method of using midi out .

Grum.
2013/11/07 12:22:07
lfm
grumbleweed4162
The video is X2. X2 works as I would expect. X3 is not working in the same way as X2, I know this as I have tried the exact same set up in both (starting from scratch in both cases) and X2 works off the bat and X3 requires the deletion and redeployment of the slave device (the midi driven plugin).
Unfortunately nobody seems to reporting their own findings so I'm having to assume my method of getting around this problem is a practical method of using midi out .

Grum.



How interesting - I'm on testing it rigth now....
2013/11/07 13:12:24
Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
lfm, I thought your CWBRN was fine. You explained what you were trying to do clearly. AFAIK Dimension Pro isn't going to send notes back to the host like you were expecting in your example, but I can see how that isn't obvious at all from your point of view. This probably could have been handled better on our end versus just pushing the case over to support to be honest. Sorry about that :/
 
I think what most likely gets people hung up on this is that a synth may expose that it supports MIDI Output, and therefore SONAR detects this and exposes it as an option, but it doesn't necessarily mean the synth supports sending notes, cc data, etc back to the host. In other words, as far as I understand it, the existence of the MIDI Out option from the synth doesn't indicate that all functions under the sun have been programmed into the synth itself. Maybe it sends one of those things, all of those things, or none of those things. It definitely differs.
 
I think some of the bugs people are perceiving are just features not implemented into the synths they are using when trying to test the feature.
 
Maybe what might be helpful is to start with something that we know sends MIDI out like Catanya, Jamstix, etc.. The demo in the video a few posts above using Reaktor is great, but a bit intense if you're not familiar.
 
Side note: that video is definitely helpful. Thank you for sharing it! I'm pretty sure we have documented cases of the behavior being shown internally. That's not quite the same thing that was reported in the CWBRN though, which seemed ultimately just trying to figure out how the feature worked in a broader sense.
 
Anyhow, I think there might be something odd about SONAR detecting MIDI Out as an option on what appears to be every synth. I'm not personally sure. I'm bugging people internally about it. Might not have an answer for a bit on this though.
2013/11/07 13:13:35
Grumbleweed_
lfm
grumbleweed4162
The video is X2. X2 works as I would expect. X3 is not working in the same way as X2, I know this as I have tried the exact same set up in both (starting from scratch in both cases) and X2 works off the bat and X3 requires the deletion and redeployment of the slave device (the midi driven plugin).
Unfortunately nobody seems to reporting their own findings so I'm having to assume my method of getting around this problem is a practical method of using midi out .

Grum.



How interesting - I'm on testing it rigth now....




Okaaay. So today I try loading Cthulhu 1 (the midi out plugin) and a Dim Pro in X2 and it works. I then try the same thing in X3......and it works.
It didn't work when I wrote my first post in this thread and now it's as though X3 has been secretly patched .
I'm going to lay down for a while.
 
By the way, when things work as you expect them to the slave plugin doesn't need to have input echo selected, only the master does.
2013/11/07 13:18:37
Grumbleweed_
Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
lfm, I thought your CWBRN was fine. You explained what you were trying to do clearly. AFAIK Dimension Pro isn't going to send notes back to the host like you were expecting in your example, but I can see how that isn't obvious at all from your point of view. This probably could have been handled better on our end versus just pushing the case over to support to be honest. Sorry about that :/

I think what most likely gets people hung up on this is that a synth may expose that it supports MIDI Output, and therefore SONAR detects this and exposes it as an option, but it doesn't necessarily mean the synth supports sending notes, cc data, etc back to the host. In other words, as far as I understand it, the existence of the MIDI Out option from the synth doesn't indicate that all functions under the sun have been programmed into the synth itself. Maybe it sends one of those things, all of those things, or none of those things. It definitely differs.

I think some of the bugs people are perceiving are just features not implemented into the synths they are using when trying to test the feature.

Maybe what might be helpful is to start with something that we know sends MIDI out like Catanya, Jamstix, etc.. The demo is the video a few posts above using Reaktor is great, but a bit intense if you're not familiar.

Side note: that video is definitely helpful. Thank you for sharing it! I'm pretty sure we have documented cases of the behavior being shown internally. That's not quite the same thing that was reported in the CWBRN though, which seemed ultimately just trying to figure out how the feature worked in a broader sense.

Anyhow, I think there might be something odd about SONAR detecting MIDI Out is an option or what appears to be every synth. I'm not personally sure. I'm bugging people internally about it. Might not have an answer for a bit on this though.



As you can see from my above post it appears Sonar X3 is working as I'd expect now but I couldn't make it work a couple of days ago (without messing about).
I do know how to set up Cthulhu to another device so I don't know what is different today.
 
Grum.
2013/11/07 13:19:25
Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
Anderton
 
And I know you haven't revealed your full hand yet  


It's five aces. Don't tell! 
2013/11/07 13:31:46
Grumbleweed_
I have come a conclusion (which is supported by Ryan's post):
 
Do not be confused by the little box comes up and lets you tick "Enable Midi Output" when you create a plugin device. It isn't a one size fits all solution and can lead to unnecessary head-scratching and irate(ish) posts to user forums.
I'll stick to using it with RealStrat and Cthulhu as I know they support it. Anything else is off limits!
 
Grum. 
2013/11/07 14:01:35
lfm
Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]

I think some of the bugs people are perceiving are just features not implemented into the synths they are using when trying to test the feature.

Maybe what might be helpful is to start with something that we know sends MIDI out like Catanya, Jamstix, etc.. The demo in the video a few posts above using Reaktor is great, but a bit intense if you're not familiar.

Anyhow, I think there might be something odd about SONAR detecting MIDI Out as an option on what appears to be every synth. I'm not personally sure. I'm bugging people internally about it. Might not have an answer for a bit on this though.




Thank you for input.
 
But I thought you guys would know whether DP has midi out working or not?
That's why I did sample project with that.
And just tell - reason it's not working is that DP does not echo midi thru.
 
Or are instructions in help wrong somehow?
 
You fixed that Waves Element does not report midi out anymore in x3c, that I noticed.
 
I can try things i Studio One what actually throws midi out as echo of midi in - or similar to that. I've ran VST midi plugins which are routed like this in S1, since it does not have a separate bay for that. And these plugins should identify as synths doing that.
 
Sonar thought - throws an error if even trying to load one of Insert Piz Here set of midi VST plugins.
 
It would be logical that a synth does not block midi - and echo thru - since a plugin after it might also care about midi.
 
But plugin vendors are maybe lazy bums.
 
So what's the deal with DP?

 
2013/11/07 21:37:22
Anderton
I've encountered so few plug-in synths with true MIDI out I don't use it. One plug-in that I know does it correctly is Groove Agent. Nice to see from this thread there are at least a few others.
2013/11/08 03:41:20
lfm
Anderton
I've encountered so few plug-in synths with true MIDI out I don't use it. One plug-in that I know does it correctly is Groove Agent. Nice to see from this thread there are at least a few others.


For me it was hope to overcome the very restricted routing abilities in X3.
 
I also now found that midi outs are fake on most synth's, it's there but not echo thru of inputs.
 
Downers:
a) Cake support does not know about Dimension having fake midi out - being their own product for a good 10 years from Project5.
b) Level of support - you will never get anywhere with that. Help system is good though and makes it rare needing support. But if having showstopper you have nowhere to turn to.
 
And support agent just make things up as he goes along with silly own theories.
c) you still in X3 have to copy clips all over to other tracks to overcome limitations in routing. Really hoped for VST3 support made them rework routing from scratch. Support for multiple midi ports in plugins, ability to have synths with audio inputs - really made me think this will all be new routing opening up most things that were limited before.
 
We touched the subject of having an extended effect chain thingy - which with minimum work could open up for many routing abilities like DDMF Metaplugin. Drag-n-drop same midi input to any number of loaded synths etc.
 
But I'm really done with Cakewalk. Abandonware....
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