vintagevibe

noynekker

vintagevibe

Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
There were no changes to the Staff View. Focus was on stability, workflow, and technology like VST and ARA.

Why has Cakewalk ignored the staff view for decades?

Multiple choice:

1) The Cake Staff View bakers have moved on
2) They perfected it decades ago
3) No one has made any recent meaningful Staff View feature requests
4) Recent survey of users panned it
5) Not enough Staff View threads on the forum
6) Recent development focus has been on stability, workflow, and technology like VST and ARA
7) Midi editing is so 1990's
8) Coming big time Staff View improvements in Sonar X4 being beta tested now.
9) Most of the above is rubbish

10) It's deep diving into the code and they have put it off so long they don't think they'll ever get it put back together if they went that deep. 

Logic would dictate that the Staph View code is un-maintainable for either technological or legal reasons, otherwise the bakers would have relegated one of their devs (the one who drew the short straw) to sit in the corner and throw us a small bone every once in a while, so that it could be said that the SV has been improved.
 
I would be happy with just some small improvements (tied triplet handling with leading or embedded rests, note value buttons, etc.)  But this is not going to happen through development (see above).  Cubasically, Cakewalk may feel that today's digital performers do not need pro tools for MIDI editing in a notation environment.
 
I have a notion that an improved SV will only be realized through acquisition.
 

Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
There were no changes to the Staff View. Focus was on stability, workflow, and technology like VST and ARA.

Actually there are some small improvements, at least compared with X2a:
 
1.  The snap-to function now works better, it is now possible to place, say, a quarter note, in its exact position even if the snap value is on 32nd notes. 
 
2.  Right-clicking on a note that is below the staff, on a ledger line calls up the note properties dialogue box without a struggle, something X2a had an issue with.
 
For midi inputting and editing, the staff view is quite adequate.  Completely up to snuff?  No, of course not, the tied/dotted triplet issue and 32nd note dotted and tied notes, and 64th notes do not display correctly.  Since I do all my scores in Sibelius, this doesn't matter much to me because Sonar plays back these all note values accurately, which is the most important thing for me.  Any skilled composer should be able to use the staff view to enter and edit MIDI, taking into account the display limitations. 
 
For those that long for the note icons on the toolbar as in previous versions before X1, all I can say is I was frustrated when I first became aware of that.  But honestly, using keybinding not only resolves that issue but makes inputting even faster.
 
q    quarter note
e    eighth note
s    sixteen note
etc.
 
Shift q   dotted quarter
Ctrl q     triplet quarter
etc.
 
Cubase's notation has more options regarding printing scores, but since I never print from Sonar, this is not an issue for me.  Digital Performer's notation is OK, but even DP doesn't display dotted triplets correctly (or tied, I forgot, one of those).  All DAW notation editors cannot be compared with Sibelius, nor should they be.  Sibelius isn't a DAW, it's a notation program!
 
And, the event list in Sonar is the best.  Why?  Because you can color code types of events, patch changes, controller changes, etc. can all have their own unique color.  The event list, in DP for example, is very difficult to look at, tiny text and no color options, same with Cubase.  For those that use the event list, color differentiation between types of events really helps a lot.
 
I am very happy with X3.  It's very stable, all VSTs, audio and midi recording and editing is smooth and without issue. 
 
JG
http://www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
 
 
 
 
 

jsg

Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
There were no changes to the Staff View. Focus was on stability, workflow, and technology like VST and ARA.

Actually there are some small improvements, at least compared with X2a:
 
1.  The snap-to function now works better, it is now possible to place, say, a quarter note, in its exact position even if the snap value is on 32nd notes. 
 
2.  Right-clicking on a note that is below the staff, on a ledger line calls up the note properties dialogue box without a struggle, something X2a had an issue with.
 
For midi inputting and editing, the staff view is quite adequate.  Completely up to snuff?  No, of course not, the tied/dotted triplet issue and 32nd note dotted and tied notes, and 64th notes do not display correctly.  Since I do all my scores in Sibelius, this doesn't matter much to me because Sonar plays back these all note values accurately, which is the most important thing for me.  Any skilled composer should be able to use the staff view to enter and edit MIDI, taking into account the display limitations. 
 
For those that long for the note icons on the toolbar as in previous versions before X1, all I can say is I was frustrated when I first became aware of that.  But honestly, using keybinding not only resolves that issue but makes inputting even faster.
 
q    quarter note
e    eighth note
s    sixteen note
etc.
 
Shift q   dotted quarter
Ctrl q     triplet quarter
etc.
 
Cubase's notation has more options regarding printing scores, but since I never print from Sonar, this is not an issue for me.  Digital Performer's notation is OK, but even DP doesn't display dotted triplets correctly (or tied, I forgot, one of those).  All DAW notation editors cannot be compared with Sibelius, nor should they be.  Sibelius isn't a DAW, it's a notation program!
 
And, the event list in Sonar is the best.  Why?  Because you can color code types of events, patch changes, controller changes, etc. can all have their own unique color.  The event list, in DP for example, is very difficult to look at, tiny text and no color options, same with Cubase.  For those that use the event list, color differentiation between types of events really helps a lot.
 
I am very happy with X3.  It's very stable, all VSTs, audio and midi recording and editing is smooth and without issue. 
 
JG
http://www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
 

 
I was venting.  Appreciate your tips for SV in X3.
 
One thing I didn't understand - "Since I do all my scores in Sibelius, this doesn't matter much to me because Sonar plays back these all note values accurately, which is the most important thing for me."
 
Did you mean that you compose in Sibelius and export / import MIDI data into X3, or do you export MIDI or create Music XML from X3 for input into Sibelius for printing?
 
Some things only make sense to me if I'm looking at or working with MIDI data in a notation view.  I don't mind cleaning things up in PRV, and there are probably even some things which can be more easily accomplished by entering data in the PRV.
 
However, using two programs, back and forth, for composing is a buzz kill for me.  My preference would be to do it all in X3 and if I really needed to print, I'd use a program like Musescore.
 
 

pbognar

jsg

Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
There were no changes to the Staff View. Focus was on stability, workflow, and technology like VST and ARA.

Actually there are some small improvements, at least compared with X2a:
 
1.  The snap-to function now works better, it is now possible to place, say, a quarter note, in its exact position even if the snap value is on 32nd notes. 
 
2.  Right-clicking on a note that is below the staff, on a ledger line calls up the note properties dialogue box without a struggle, something X2a had an issue with.
 
For midi inputting and editing, the staff view is quite adequate.  Completely up to snuff?  No, of course not, the tied/dotted triplet issue and 32nd note dotted and tied notes, and 64th notes do not display correctly.  Since I do all my scores in Sibelius, this doesn't matter much to me because Sonar plays back these all note values accurately, which is the most important thing for me.  Any skilled composer should be able to use the staff view to enter and edit MIDI, taking into account the display limitations. 
 
For those that long for the note icons on the toolbar as in previous versions before X1, all I can say is I was frustrated when I first became aware of that.  But honestly, using keybinding not only resolves that issue but makes inputting even faster.
 
q    quarter note
e    eighth note
s    sixteen note
etc.
 
Shift q   dotted quarter
Ctrl q     triplet quarter
etc.
 
Cubase's notation has more options regarding printing scores, but since I never print from Sonar, this is not an issue for me.  Digital Performer's notation is OK, but even DP doesn't display dotted triplets correctly (or tied, I forgot, one of those).  All DAW notation editors cannot be compared with Sibelius, nor should they be.  Sibelius isn't a DAW, it's a notation program!
 
And, the event list in Sonar is the best.  Why?  Because you can color code types of events, patch changes, controller changes, etc. can all have their own unique color.  The event list, in DP for example, is very difficult to look at, tiny text and no color options, same with Cubase.  For those that use the event list, color differentiation between types of events really helps a lot.
 
I am very happy with X3.  It's very stable, all VSTs, audio and midi recording and editing is smooth and without issue. 
 
JG
http://www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
 

 
I was venting.  Appreciate your tips for SV in X3.
 
One thing I didn't understand - "Since I do all my scores in Sibelius, this doesn't matter much to me because Sonar plays back these all note values accurately, which is the most important thing for me."
 
Did you mean that you compose in Sibelius and export / import MIDI data into X3, or do you export MIDI or create Music XML from X3 for input into Sibelius for printing?
 
Some things only make sense to me if I'm looking at or working with MIDI data in a notation view.  I don't mind cleaning things up in PRV, and there are probably even some things which can be more easily accomplished by entering data in the PRV.
 
However, using two programs, back and forth, for composing is a buzz kill for me.  My preference would be to do it all in X3 and if I really needed to print, I'd use a program like Musescore.
 
 

 I compose and sequence in Sonar (now X3b).  I'm now working on my 13th album.  I do create scores in Sibelius, I export the MIDI file from Sonar to Sibelius and clean up any rhythmic issues, add tempo markings, etc.  I don't use Music XML, I simply create a type 1 MIDI file in Sonar and export to Sibelius.  If that score were to be presented to live players, I'd add all the necessary phrasing, bowings and articulation marks.  But generally, I create a score because it helps me document my work, teach composition to students, and helps me error-check my MIDI sequence. 
 
I don't use two programs to compose, I use one, Sonar.  But when I need or want a score, I export ot Sibelius.  No big deal for me, I've been doing it for many years this way. 
 
JG
http://www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
 
 

Working in Staff view would fall under the category of a "workflow" , IMO.

Sorry if this a rather late contribution but I found this thread by chance. When I first started writing music back in 2005 and bought Homestudio 4XL, I contacted Cakewalk with what I thought was a reasonable suggestion about improving Staff View (must have been a very trivial item as I cannot now remember what it was!). I received a rather terse and short response that Cakewalk was a sequencer and that if I wanted to write music by notation, go elsewhere! OK, I'm still here!
 
I don't like Piano Roll View as I cannot 'see' music in that view - I can see music in Staff View on a stave. When I think music, I think notes on a stave. Always have, always will. I do not play any instrument but I have a range of VSTs that do it for me. So I don't need a sequencer as such. But I do need the ability to write notes on a stave and the excellent range of mixing and audio tools that Sonar provides to make the VSTs sound right. I am sure I am not alone in the way I use Sonar. I regularly recommend Sonar to other composers who work on staves as I do. I tell them that Staff View may not be a notation facility of the sophistication of Finale or Sibelius but it is workable and the quality of the audio tools makes Sonar in my view unbeatable as the tool of choice for notation-orientated composers. And transferring the music by midi file to a notation software is easy if you need to produce a Score.
 
So my plea to Sonar is don't disregard or belittle Staff View. Those who use your software are NOT all sequencers. We are ALL composers, we just work in different ways. And the beauty of Sonar is that it works for us all.
 
(Mind you, I would rather like facilities for 'phrasing' but I can wait!).
 

pbognar
 
However, using two programs, back and forth, for composing is a buzz kill for me.  My preference would be to do it all in X3 and if I really needed to print, I'd use a program like Musescore.
 
 

Agree.  I've tried that at it's a terrible workflow.  I want to compose int notation and mix in the same app.

Wow, you got a response on your feature request? 
 
That's more than I've ever gotten.

harmony gardens

noldar12
I wish the situation was different, but for all intents and purposes I suspect Staff view has long since been orphaned to be nothing more than what it already is.  In previous years, the ongoing issues with the Staff view were raised quite strongly, but to no avail.
 
It may well be that Cakewalk has determined that the costs to upgrade the notation features are greater than the revenue that fixing it would bring in.  In any case it will be interesting to see what happens in the DAW world over the next few years given what has happened with both Notion, and the former Sibelius employees (Finale's situation is by no means certain either).

But the same thing happened when people wanted the groove matrix and we got that.  ;) 
 
 
 

Did anyone actually ask for groove  matrix? I think it was something that was cheap and easy pseudo-Ableton thing to implement.  They have made a few minor improvents but it probably gets touched less than staff view.  I doubt there are many users who are dependent on it.

I wasn't saying any of that to belittle anyone's plight.  There just seems to be this mistaken notion that items like matrix view have priority  and that Sonar is being geared more and more towards loop based production when nothing could be farther from the truth.  The casual user of the matrix view would probably not notice a single difference since it's introduction and i would not have noticed if I had not read about them. The loops that come with Sonar have been the same for awhile and Cakewalk has not introduced a new instrument for awhile.  In fact, every major loop manipulation feature or instrument was introduced to Sonar many versions ago and are mostly 32-bit.