I'm planning my upgrade to a new computer/DAW. I was a fan since the Pro Audio 9.  Since then, Sonar 8.5.3 has been usable, but not stable. The X series has been plagued with complaints, so I never bought in. I'm about to bail on Cakewalk, but they served me so well in the Pro Audio and early Sonar versions, I hate to start from scratch. Recent reviews say the X3c is good. But if they refuse to include some sort of decent notation/MIDI interface, I'll move on. Any advice out there?

The Staff view has been enhanced a bit since 8.5.3, but overall it provides the same functionality.
 
Vocal tuning, however, has been significantly enhanced with the integration of Celemony's Melodyne Essential. Much better than V-Vocal.
 
Scott

--
Scott R. Garrigus - http://garrigus.com - SONAR X2 Power! - http://garrigus.com/?SonarX2Power
* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series: http://garrigus.com/?PowerBooks
* Author of the Cakewalk Sonar ProAudioTutor video tutorial series: http://garrigus.com/?ProAudioTutor
* Publisher of the DigiFreq free music technology newsletter: http://digifreq.com/?DigiFreq
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12Kevin
I'm planning my upgrade to a new computer/DAW. I was a fan since the Pro Audio 9.  Since then, Sonar 8.5.3 has been usable, but not stable. The X series has been plagued with complaints, so I never bought in. I'm about to bail on Cakewalk, but they served me so well in the Pro Audio and early Sonar versions, I hate to start from scratch. Recent reviews say the X3c is good. But if they refuse to include some sort of decent notation/MIDI interface, I'll move on. Any advice out there?

I've used the staff view in Cakewalk for decades.  There have been some improvements in X2 and X3:
 
1.  The right-side track pane has a dark background, easier to see.
2.  Snap-to functions seem to work better
3.  In X2, you had to press CTRL when right-clicking to call up the process menu.  Luckily, this has been restored so that you don't have to press CTRL, as this staff view function behaved prior to X1 and X2.
4.  It used to be that deselecting notes was too easy, all you had to do was click on an empty area of the staff.  Now you have to move the mouse a bit as well.  This is definitely better in that you won't accidentally unselect a group of notes.
5.  The use of keybinding note values is far faster than having to select note values from little icons on the screen.  At first, like most people who use the staff view, I protested.  But now I find just hitting Q for quarter or e for eighth, etc. is a more efficient way of doing it. 
 
The Sonar staff view has the same limitations it has had from the beginning:
1.  Improper notation of tied/dotted triplets
2.  Inability to notate 32nd note triplets and 64th notes.
 
After studying the staff views fairly intensively in Cubase and Digital Performer for Windows, I realized that Sonar's limitations are not really an issue for me (I am a classically trained composer and have written much virtual orchestral music, complex contrapuntal music in long-form).  Here's why:
 
When I need a real score I use Sibelius.  Sonar's staff view was never meant to be a publish-quality scoring program like Sibelius.  None of the DAW notation programs can compare to Sibelius. Cubase's staff view definitely has a lot more symbols, but again, I don't need them because I wouldn't do a finished score in a DAW.  Also Cubase's staff view is very clunky to use.  Digital Performer's staff view has some issues too:  It cannot display dotted triplets correctly either (although it displays tied triplets correctly).   I think of the staff view in Sonar as a MIDI input/editing tool, nothing less and nothing more.  Since Sonar plays the tied and dotted triplets correctly and since Sonar plays the 32nd note triplets and 64th notes correctly, I really don't have an issue with these limitations. 
 
Compared to other DAWs, Sonar has a superior event list (color coding), it has a superior patch management system, it has a superior windows management system and a whole host of other things that I love about it.  I made peace with the staff view because it is the right tool for creating complex orchestral scores--IF you don't have OCD and expect the score to always look exactly the way it should while composing.  As I said, I export to Sibelius to create a finished score anyway, so it has no meaningful impact on the precision and quality of my compositions, the quality of my recordings and the quality of my scores.
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
 
 

jsg

12Kevin
I'm planning my upgrade to a new computer/DAW. I was a fan since the Pro Audio 9.  Since then, Sonar 8.5.3 has been usable, but not stable. The X series has been plagued with complaints, so I never bought in. I'm about to bail on Cakewalk, but they served me so well in the Pro Audio and early Sonar versions, I hate to start from scratch. Recent reviews say the X3c is good. But if they refuse to include some sort of decent notation/MIDI interface, I'll move on. Any advice out there?

I've used the staff view in Cakewalk for decades.  There have been some improvements in X2 and X3:
 
1.  The right-side track pane has a dark background, easier to see.
2.  Snap-to functions seem to work better
3.  In X2, you had to press CTRL when right-clicking to call up the process menu.  Luckily, this has been restored so that you don't have to press CTRL, as this staff view function behaved prior to X1 and X2.
4.  It used to be that deselecting notes was too easy, all you had to do was click on an empty area of the staff.  Now you have to move the mouse a bit as well.  This is definitely better in that you won't accidentally unselect a group of notes.
5.  The use of keybinding note values is far faster than having to select note values from little icons on the screen.  At first, like most people who use the staff view, I protested.  But now I find just hitting Q for quarter or e for eighth, etc. is a more efficient way of doing it. 
 
The Sonar staff view has the same limitations it has had from the beginning:
1.  Improper notation of tied/dotted triplets
2.  Inability to notate 32nd note triplets and 64th notes.
 
After studying the staff views fairly intensively in Cubase and Digital Performer for Windows, I realized that Sonar's limitations are not really an issue for me (I am a classically trained composer and have written much virtual orchestral music, complex contrapuntal music in long-form).  Here's why:
 
When I need a real score I use Sibelius.  Sonar's staff view was never meant to be a publish-quality scoring program like Sibelius.  None of the DAW notation programs can compare to Sibelius. Cubase's staff view definitely has a lot more symbols, but again, I don't need them because I wouldn't do a finished score in a DAW.  Also Cubase's staff view is very clunky to use.  Digital Performer's staff view has some issues too:  It cannot display dotted triplets correctly either (although it displays tied triplets correctly).   I think of the staff view in Sonar as a MIDI input/editing tool, nothing less and nothing more.  Since Sonar plays the tied and dotted triplets correctly and since Sonar plays the 32nd note triplets and 64th notes correctly, I really don't have an issue with these limitations. 
 
Compared to other DAWs, Sonar has a superior event list (color coding), it has a superior patch management system, it has a superior windows management system and a whole host of other things that I love about it.  I made peace with the staff view because it is the right tool for creating complex orchestral scores--IF you don't have OCD and expect the score to always look exactly the way it should while composing.  As I said, I export to Sibelius to create a finished score anyway, so it has no meaningful impact on the precision and quality of my compositions, the quality of my recordings and the quality of my scores.
 
As far as vocal tuning, I only work with trained, professional singers whose intonation is good so I don't need to mess with adjusting vocal pitches, I'd rather just do another take if an occasional note is sharp or flat...
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
 
 

@jsg - Given Sonar has the 2 major notation limitations you mentioned, I'm not following when you say "Since Sonar plays the tied and dotted triplets correctly and since Sonar plays the 32nd note triplets and 64th notes correctly".  How do you get the tied and dotted triplets / 32nd note triplets and 64th notes into Sonar?  Do play them in or input them in the PRV?
 
Let's say you have a phrase which has a string of 16th note triplets, but maybe they are not in groups of 3 or they don't begin on a beat, or there are embedded 16th note rests?  I've found it impossible to enter this type of information using the SV - for these types of things, I've had to resort to the PRV.  Any tips?

pbognar

jsg

12Kevin
I'm planning my upgrade to a new computer/DAW. I was a fan since the Pro Audio 9.  Since then, Sonar 8.5.3 has been usable, but not stable. The X series has been plagued with complaints, so I never bought in. I'm about to bail on Cakewalk, but they served me so well in the Pro Audio and early Sonar versions, I hate to start from scratch. Recent reviews say the X3c is good. But if they refuse to include some sort of decent notation/MIDI interface, I'll move on. Any advice out there?

I've used the staff view in Cakewalk for decades.  There have been some improvements in X2 and X3:
 
1.  The right-side track pane has a dark background, easier to see.
2.  Snap-to functions seem to work better
3.  In X2, you had to press CTRL when right-clicking to call up the process menu.  Luckily, this has been restored so that you don't have to press CTRL, as this staff view function behaved prior to X1 and X2.
4.  It used to be that deselecting notes was too easy, all you had to do was click on an empty area of the staff.  Now you have to move the mouse a bit as well.  This is definitely better in that you won't accidentally unselect a group of notes.
5.  The use of keybinding note values is far faster than having to select note values from little icons on the screen.  At first, like most people who use the staff view, I protested.  But now I find just hitting Q for quarter or e for eighth, etc. is a more efficient way of doing it. 
 
The Sonar staff view has the same limitations it has had from the beginning:
1.  Improper notation of tied/dotted triplets
2.  Inability to notate 32nd note triplets and 64th notes.
 
After studying the staff views fairly intensively in Cubase and Digital Performer for Windows, I realized that Sonar's limitations are not really an issue for me (I am a classically trained composer and have written much virtual orchestral music, complex contrapuntal music in long-form).  Here's why:
 
When I need a real score I use Sibelius.  Sonar's staff view was never meant to be a publish-quality scoring program like Sibelius.  None of the DAW notation programs can compare to Sibelius. Cubase's staff view definitely has a lot more symbols, but again, I don't need them because I wouldn't do a finished score in a DAW.  Also Cubase's staff view is very clunky to use.  Digital Performer's staff view has some issues too:  It cannot display dotted triplets correctly either (although it displays tied triplets correctly).   I think of the staff view in Sonar as a MIDI input/editing tool, nothing less and nothing more.  Since Sonar plays the tied and dotted triplets correctly and since Sonar plays the 32nd note triplets and 64th notes correctly, I really don't have an issue with these limitations. 
 
Compared to other DAWs, Sonar has a superior event list (color coding), it has a superior patch management system, it has a superior windows management system and a whole host of other things that I love about it.  I made peace with the staff view because it is the right tool for creating complex orchestral scores--IF you don't have OCD and expect the score to always look exactly the way it should while composing.  As I said, I export to Sibelius to create a finished score anyway, so it has no meaningful impact on the precision and quality of my compositions, the quality of my recordings and the quality of my scores.
 
As far as vocal tuning, I only work with trained, professional singers whose intonation is good so I don't need to mess with adjusting vocal pitches, I'd rather just do another take if an occasional note is sharp or flat...
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
 
 

@jsg - Given Sonar has the 2 major notation limitations you mentioned, I'm not following when you say "Since Sonar plays the tied and dotted triplets correctly and since Sonar plays the 32nd note triplets and 64th notes correctly".  How do you get the tied and dotted triplets / 32nd note triplets and 64th notes into Sonar?  Do play them in or input them in the PRV?
 
Let's say you have a phrase which has a string of 16th note triplets, but maybe they are not in groups of 3 or they don't begin on a beat, or there are embedded 16th note rests?  I've found it impossible to enter this type of information using the SV - for these types of things, I've had to resort to the PRV.  Any tips?

I can play them in, or I can pop the notes onto the staff.  Either way, they won't look right, but they will SOUND right. 
 
Yeah, here's a tip:  Let's say you begin a phrase with the 3rd note of a 16th note triplet.  With a timebase of 480, each sixteenth triplet gets 40 ticks, and the 3rd note of that triplet (let's say its on measure 22 beat 3) would be placed on the staff at 22 3 80.  If my memory serves me correctly I think I even did some embedded triplets within triplets a few times, again, its just simple math to figure out what tick the note goes on.  Of course this is easier and more likely to help if I could demonstrate rather than explain   ;>)
 
If you want to use tied and/or dotted triplets, no problem. Just figure out where they go relative to the timebase and the number of ticks of the note, and you'll know where they go.  If you have your note resolution on its highest value (which I never change), the tied and/or dotted triplet will look a little weird, but plays back exactly as it should.   Believe me it works, listen to any of my orchestral works and you'll see Sonar's staff view gets the job done. 
 
Let's say you want to enter a group of septuplets.  Again, with a timebase of 480, each septuplet gets 68.57 ticks.  Of course you have to round off to 69 ticks, but again, this is totally doable in Sonar. 
I have never once, in all my years of using Sonar used the PRV.
 
The long-standing wrong displays of tied/dotted triplets is really no more than a minor nuisance, having no effect on the capacity to enter rhythms on off-beats, weak beats, groups of 7, 11, or whatever.
 
Hope this helps!
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
 

 

jsg
I can play them in, or I can pop the notes onto the staff.  Either way, they won't look right, but they will SOUND right. 
 
Yeah, here's a tip:  Let's say you begin a phrase with the 3rd note of a 16th note triplet.  With a timebase of 480, each sixteenth triplet gets 40 ticks, and the 3rd note of that triplet (let's say its on measure 22 beat 3) would be placed on the staff at 22 3 80.  If my memory serves me correctly I think I even did some embedded triplets within triplets a few times, again, its just simple math to figure out what tick the note goes on.  Of course this is easier and more likely to help if I could demonstrate rather than explain   ;>)
 
If you want to use tied and/or dotted triplets, no problem. Just figure out where they go relative to the timebase and the number of ticks of the note, and you'll know where they go.  If you have your note resolution on its highest value (which I never change), the tied and/or dotted triplet will look a little weird, but plays back exactly as it should.   Believe me it works, listen to any of my orchestral works and you'll see Sonar's staff view gets the job done. 
 
Let's say you want to enter a group of septuplets.  Again, with a timebase of 480, each septuplet gets 68.57 ticks.  Of course you have to round off to 69 ticks, but again, this is totally doable in Sonar. 
I have never once, in all my years of using Sonar used the PRV.
 
The long-standing wrong displays of tied/dotted triplets is really no more than a minor nuisance, having no effect on the capacity to enter rhythms on off-beats, weak beats, groups of 7, 11, or whatever.
 
Hope this helps!
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
 

Your tips got me to sit down and try some things with the SV.  I rediscovered the <shift><right/left arrow> key combinations to step through the timeline by the currently selected note duration (this means I don't need to memorize tick values).  This made it easy to position myself to the 2nd 16th triplet of the 2nd beat - pretty cool.  What would be even nicer is if the quarter note bar ruler guide above the staff would display gradiations which match the duration you have currently selected, instead of just the quarter note lines.  It would be even nicer if there was a giant aim assist cross which graphically showed you where you were on the time line when moving the mouse with the pencil tool for inserting notes - but it's pretty nice that as you move the mouse left and right, the bar / beat / tick  are constantly updated.
 
I have to agree that given all the other cool functions Sonar has, I could get used to the limitations of the SV, because unlike you, I am not classically trained, but I prefer notation for entering some things, and fixing existing things in the SV.
 
I will probably never enter septuplets, however how are you able to set a non-duration so that you can position yourself at something like 22 3 69?
 
Pete

Sibelius great for printed scores etc.. but if you want to COMPOSE in notation Cubase is pretty incredible.  It does several things better than Sibelius and some things Sibelius doesn't do at all.  Although it is primarily a DAW and not as good as Sibelius its notation was specifically designed to get professional results and does a great job for quite a few tasks.  Sibelius is a Notation app and it is superb at that but it's not possible to get a broadcast ready mix inside Sibelius.  Its included library is decent but nowhere near the quality of dedicated libraries.  Sonar's notation is really a toy and the worst in the industry.  If you want to compose in notation and also want to hear the highest quality sound Cubase, Protools or DP8 (DP8 Windows version is new and very buggy) are the best PC tools.  With any of these when you export via MIDI or Musc XML you will still have a lot of clean up and repair work ahead.

vintagevibe
Sibelius great for printed scores etc.. but if you want to COMPOSE in notation Cubase is pretty incredible.  It does several things better than Sibelius and some things Sibelius doesn't do at all.  Although it is primarily a DAW and not as good as Sibelius its notation was specifically designed to get professional results and does a great job for quite a few tasks.  Sibelius is a Notation app and it is superb at that but it's not possible to get a broadcast ready mix inside Sibelius.  Its included library is decent but nowhere near the quality of dedicated libraries.  Sonar's notation is really a toy and the worst in the industry.  If you want to compose in notation and also want to hear the highest quality sound Cubase, Protools or DP8 (DP8 Windows version is new and very buggy) are the best PC tools.  With any of these when you export via MIDI or Musc XML you will still have a lot of clean up and repair work ahead.

Vintage Vibe wants to start a duel here, just like last time, but I have a better idea. Don't listen to him and don't listen to me.  Get Cubase if you want, get Sonar, get both, get neither, do whatever makes you happy.  Decide for yourself and know that any DAW can be used to good purpose.  I'm not sure why a person who uses Cubase finds the time and need to come to a Sonar forum and bash the staff view. 
 
Sonar's notation handles asymmetrical meters, alternating meters, changing meters, triplets, sextuplets, quintuplets and other asymmetrical groupings.  If a musician is having trouble creating complex rhythms, effective syncopation and intricate counterpoint in the Sonar staff view that says less about the staff view and more about a lack of know-how and technique.  Also, consider this:  Much of the detail in producing an electronic orchestration takes place in the event list, not only on the staff.  The velocities, controllers, envelopes, note lengths, location relative to the beat, volume, timbre--all of these parameters must be considered when sculpting phrases..
 
If Sonar's staff view is a "toy", as Vintage Vibe asserts, below is a link to what this so-called "toy" is capable of, listen to part 4:
www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
 
I'll be at the NAMM show in January presenting the workshop I created entitled "Beyond the MIDI Mockup", sponsored by Cakewalk, NAMM and the MIDI Manufacturer's Association.  For those musicians who want to learn more about how to use a sequencer to produce music that has expression, nuance, gesture and subtlety, this workshop will focus on these very topics.  Hope to see you there!  Here are the details:
 
http://www.midi.org/aboutus/news/2014HOT.php
 
Jerry

pbognar
 

jsg
I can play them in, or I can pop the notes onto the staff.  Either way, they won't look right, but they will SOUND right. 
 
Yeah, here's a tip:  Let's say you begin a phrase with the 3rd note of a 16th note triplet.  With a timebase of 480, each sixteenth triplet gets 40 ticks, and the 3rd note of that triplet (let's say its on measure 22 beat 3) would be placed on the staff at 22 3 80.  If my memory serves me correctly I think I even did some embedded triplets within triplets a few times, again, its just simple math to figure out what tick the note goes on.  Of course this is easier and more likely to help if I could demonstrate rather than explain   ;>)
 
If you want to use tied and/or dotted triplets, no problem. Just figure out where they go relative to the timebase and the number of ticks of the note, and you'll know where they go.  If you have your note resolution on its highest value (which I never change), the tied and/or dotted triplet will look a little weird, but plays back exactly as it should.   Believe me it works, listen to any of my orchestral works and you'll see Sonar's staff view gets the job done. 
 
Let's say you want to enter a group of septuplets.  Again, with a timebase of 480, each septuplet gets 68.57 ticks.  Of course you have to round off to 69 ticks, but again, this is totally doable in Sonar. 
I have never once, in all my years of using Sonar used the PRV.
 
The long-standing wrong displays of tied/dotted triplets is really no more than a minor nuisance, having no effect on the capacity to enter rhythms on off-beats, weak beats, groups of 7, 11, or whatever.
 
Hope this helps!
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
 

Your tips got me to sit down and try some things with the SV.  I rediscovered the <shift><right/left arrow> key combinations to step through the timeline by the currently selected note duration (this means I don't need to memorize tick values).  This made it easy to position myself to the 2nd 16th triplet of the 2nd beat - pretty cool.  What would be even nicer is if the quarter note bar ruler guide above the staff would display gradiations which match the duration you have currently selected, instead of just the quarter note lines.  It would be even nicer if there was a giant aim assist cross which graphically showed you where you were on the time line when moving the mouse with the pencil tool for inserting notes - but it's pretty nice that as you move the mouse left and right, the bar / beat / tick  are constantly updated.
 
I have to agree that given all the other cool functions Sonar has, I could get used to the limitations of the SV, because unlike you, I am not classically trained, but I prefer notation for entering some things, and fixing existing things in the SV.
 
I will probably never enter septuplets, however how are you able to set a non-duration so that you can position yourself at something like 22 3 69?
 
Pete

 
It's done manually.  You can click on any note's properties and move it to whatever part of the beat (tick) you want.  The same can be done with a group of notes using Process-Find/Change or Slide. 
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com

vintagevibe
 If you want to compose in notation and also want to hear the highest quality sound Cubase, Protools or DP8 (DP8 Windows version is new and very buggy) are the best PC tools.  With any of these when you export via MIDI or Musc XML you will still have a lot of clean up and repair work ahead.

This is totally incorrect information.  The "highest quality sound" has nothing at all to do with MIDI or your DAW, it has to do with the quality of your sample libraries and your synthesizers.  It has to do with your technique as a composer and orchestrator, the quality of your monitors, actually many things, but your DAW and MIDI are not in the equation, unless your DAW has MIDI glitches and doesn't playback without error.  
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com