Of course Vintage Vibe (Dean Wolinsky) blocks me.  He doesn't like it I call him on his nonsensical statements and his unwillingness/incapacity to admit when he is wrong.   He says I "attack him".  Does anybody of sound body and mind who has read these posts believe I've in any way attacked him?  I've contradicted him because if he gives false information someone's got to call him on it or he'll keep misinforming others.  How helpful is he when all he contributes are his negative opinions about the staff view is when people are trying to use it and understand how to use it better?  
 
Other than the inability to display tied/dotted triplets and 64th notes properly (no relevance to accurate playback) the staff view is a robust and effective tool for composing music.  My music is proof of that. Once you learn all the small details about the staff view, you'll find it's more than adequate to compose in. 
And, compared to Cubase, you don't need to use a dongle, you get a better event list, better windows management, better patch management and better name management of controllers. 
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
 
 
 

Keni

jsg

vintagevibe
Sibelius great for printed scores etc.. but if you want to COMPOSE in notation Cubase is pretty incredible.  It does several things better than Sibelius and some things Sibelius doesn't do at all.  Although it is primarily a DAW and not as good as Sibelius its notation was specifically designed to get professional results and does a great job for quite a few tasks.  Sibelius is a Notation app and it is superb at that but it's not possible to get a broadcast ready mix inside Sibelius.  Its included library is decent but nowhere near the quality of dedicated libraries.  Sonar's notation is really a toy and the worst in the industry.  If you want to compose in notation and also want to hear the highest quality sound Cubase, Protools or DP8 (DP8 Windows version is new and very buggy) are the best PC tools.  With any of these when you export via MIDI or Musc XML you will still have a lot of clean up and repair work ahead.

Vintage Vibe wants to start a duel here, just like last time, but I have a better idea. Don't listen to him and don't listen to me.  Get Cubase if you want, get Sonar, get both, get neither, do whatever makes you happy.  Decide for yourself and know that any DAW can be used to good purpose.  I'm not sure why a person who uses Cubase finds the time and need to come to a Sonar forum and bash the staff view. 
 
Sonar's notation handles asymmetrical meters, alternating meters, changing meters, triplets, sextuplets, quintuplets and other asymmetrical groupings.  If a musician is having trouble creating complex rhythms, effective syncopation and intricate counterpoint in the Sonar staff view that says less about the staff view and more about a lack of know-how and technique.  Also, consider this:  Much of the detail in producing an electronic orchestration takes place in the event list, not only on the staff.  The velocities, controllers, envelopes, note lengths, location relative to the beat, volume, timbre--all of these parameters must be considered when sculpting phrases..
 
If Sonar's staff view is a "toy", as Vintage Vibe asserts, below is a link to what this so-called "toy" is capable of, listen to part 4:
www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
 
I'll be at the NAMM show in January presenting the workshop I created entitled "Beyond the MIDI Mockup", sponsored by Cakewalk, NAMM and the MIDI Manufacturer's Association.  For those musicians who want to learn more about how to use a sequencer to produce music that has expression, nuance, gesture and subtlety, this workshop will focus on these very topics.  Hope to see you there!  Here are the details:
 
http://www.midi.org/aboutus/news/2014HOT.php
 
Jerry

Hi Jerry...
 
I just looked/listened to some of your music on the page above (symphony8)... Very nicely done. It's very cool to hear someone using Sonar for Orchestral music as the majority of Sonar Users are not Orchestral composers/arrangers (no slight on anyone, just some raw numbers)...
 
Tho I did not try to examine the Staff Notation carefully, it sure looks "clean"...
 
I don't often use the SV myself, but I have had need on occasion... and it's nice to know that it's there if/when needed. I can't imagine players having trouble reading it due to Sonar's SV limitations... ;-)
 
Thanks for sharing the music as well as the info...
 
Keni
 

Keni,
 
The notation you were looking at was done in Sibelius, not in Sonar...
 

12Kevin
I'm planning my upgrade to a new computer/DAW. I was a fan since the Pro Audio 9.  Since then, Sonar 8.5.3 has been usable, but not stable. The X series has been plagued with complaints, so I never bought in. I'm about to bail on Cakewalk, but they served me so well in the Pro Audio and early Sonar versions, I hate to start from scratch. Recent reviews say the X3c is good. But if they refuse to include some sort of decent notation/MIDI interface, I'll move on. Any advice out there?

I forgot to mention that one of the great features about the Sonar staff view (actually its about Sonar's window management in general) is that you can lock windows and have multiple windows open.  So I can have a window with 8 wind instruments (8 staves), another with 11 brass instruments, and another with strings, all at the same time, each window locked. This blows away anything Cubase or DP can offer.  The advantages are really important:  you don't have to continually be picking and choosing which staves you want displayed, you've got them all in multiple windows.  This feature began with X1, but has been refined and improved through X3.  It's a big time saver.  I have a student who uses DP and it really is time-consuming to have to constantly be having to pick instruments to display in the staff view.
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com

Incredible work jsg!!!!!! That sounded like a real orchestra to me, just amazing. I don't read music or listen to classical but I CAN appreciate good music. Well done!

vintagevibe
To the OP:   I've blocked jsg so now we can have an adult conversation.  
 
I've used Sonar for many years and while it's a great program it is the weakest among it's competition with regards to notation.  Although I still use Sonar for some tasks when I do anything that needs notation I'm far happier and way more productive in Cubase.  DP8 and Protools might be fine for notation as well but if you spend most of your time in notation Sonar is not the best tool IMO.  They have told me there will be no major notation upgrades.  Sonar does some things better than Cubase but the Cubase notation is another world compared to Sonar. Scoring is well implemented and quite easy to use once you learn it.  I do teaching, composing and backing tracks for my live show.  When I compose I use notation quite a bit and I can compose and orchestrate and with EWQL libraries and get the exact mix I want and a score that looks correct without going out to Sibelius.  I hear a broadcast ready mix during the composing process.  For me that is the absolute best way to work.  I've tried going back and forth between Sonar and Sibelius vie Re-Wire and MXML but that is a time consumming, cumbersome and inspiration killing process.  I still use Sibelius for teaching but IMO if notation is important to you there are far better tools than Sonar.  I might even upgrade to X3 since I still use it for live performance tasks but I am blown away by experience of having great notation tools INSIDE a DAW.  Just my opinion YMMV yada, yada, yada...

Someone at Cakealk actually told you there would be no major notation upgrades in Sonar?  Is this in the context of X3, or ever?

jsg

12Kevin
I'm planning my upgrade to a new computer/DAW. I was a fan since the Pro Audio 9.  Since then, Sonar 8.5.3 has been usable, but not stable. The X series has been plagued with complaints, so I never bought in. I'm about to bail on Cakewalk, but they served me so well in the Pro Audio and early Sonar versions, I hate to start from scratch. Recent reviews say the X3c is good. But if they refuse to include some sort of decent notation/MIDI interface, I'll move on. Any advice out there?

I forgot to mention that one of the great features about the Sonar staff view (actually its about Sonar's window management in general) is that you can lock windows and have multiple windows open.  So I can have a window with 8 wind instruments (8 staves), another with 11 brass instruments, and another with strings, all at the same time, each window locked. This blows away anything Cubase or DP can offer.  The advantages are really important:  you don't have to continually be picking and choosing which staves you want displayed, you've got them all in multiple windows.  This feature began with X1, but has been refined and improved through X3.  It's a big time saver.  I have a student who uses DP and it really is time-consuming to have to constantly be having to pick instruments to display in the staff view.
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com

I'm not trying to be provocative, but have you had any experience with the notation / MIDI in Logic?  In general, how does it stack up to Sonar, Cubase, and DP?  Would you be able to accomplish what you can in Sonar with Logic?

pbognar

jsg

12Kevin
I'm planning my upgrade to a new computer/DAW. I was a fan since the Pro Audio 9.  Since then, Sonar 8.5.3 has been usable, but not stable. The X series has been plagued with complaints, so I never bought in. I'm about to bail on Cakewalk, but they served me so well in the Pro Audio and early Sonar versions, I hate to start from scratch. Recent reviews say the X3c is good. But if they refuse to include some sort of decent notation/MIDI interface, I'll move on. Any advice out there?

I forgot to mention that one of the great features about the Sonar staff view (actually its about Sonar's window management in general) is that you can lock windows and have multiple windows open.  So I can have a window with 8 wind instruments (8 staves), another with 11 brass instruments, and another with strings, all at the same time, each window locked. This blows away anything Cubase or DP can offer.  The advantages are really important:  you don't have to continually be picking and choosing which staves you want displayed, you've got them all in multiple windows.  This feature began with X1, but has been refined and improved through X3.  It's a big time saver.  I have a student who uses DP and it really is time-consuming to have to constantly be having to pick instruments to display in the staff view.
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com

I'm not trying to be provocative, but have you had any experience with the notation / MIDI in Logic?  In general, how does it stack up to Sonar, Cubase, and DP?  Would you be able to accomplish what you can in Sonar with Logic?

I have no idea, I've never used Logic.  My studio is PC based, not MAC.  From everything I've read, all DAW notation programs leave someone or another unhappy.  My experience with Cubase, DP and Sonar is that there is not that much difference between them, other than Cubase has a lot more notation symbols, obviously unnecessary if you use the staff view as I do as an midi input and editing tool, my scores are done in Sibelius. 
 

pbognar

vintagevibe
To the OP:   I've blocked jsg so now we can have an adult conversation.  
 
I've used Sonar for many years and while it's a great program it is the weakest among it's competition with regards to notation.  Although I still use Sonar for some tasks when I do anything that needs notation I'm far happier and way more productive in Cubase.  DP8 and Protools might be fine for notation as well but if you spend most of your time in notation Sonar is not the best tool IMO.  They have told me there will be no major notation upgrades.  Sonar does some things better than Cubase but the Cubase notation is another world compared to Sonar. Scoring is well implemented and quite easy to use once you learn it.  I do teaching, composing and backing tracks for my live show.  When I compose I use notation quite a bit and I can compose and orchestrate and with EWQL libraries and get the exact mix I want and a score that looks correct without going out to Sibelius.  I hear a broadcast ready mix during the composing process.  For me that is the absolute best way to work.  I've tried going back and forth between Sonar and Sibelius vie Re-Wire and MXML but that is a time consumming, cumbersome and inspiration killing process.  I still use Sibelius for teaching but IMO if notation is important to you there are far better tools than Sonar.  I might even upgrade to X3 since I still use it for live performance tasks but I am blown away by experience of having great notation tools INSIDE a DAW.  Just my opinion YMMV yada, yada, yada...

Someone at Cakealk actually told you there would be no major notation upgrades in Sonar?  Is this in the context of X3, or ever?

The said there might me incremental updates but that is all.  That was before Gibson so who knows?

Wonder if these other guys from Boston might want to collaborate with Cakewalk....
http://www.noteflight.com/login
 
They already have an established education market and colloboration would benefit all. Cakwalk seem to be interested in getting things online (youtube/gobbler etc)
 
Without misquoting anybody it has been suggested that the education market (where notation is prevalent) is saturated, but this in the cloud editing is extremley useful for education (html5) for kids, students and teachers. Some sort of collaboration  where midi data could be shared directly could in fact provide a unique product in the market.
 
It might be a daft idea idea..... but then somebody wanted to use a mouse and icons once........