• SONAR
  • Why dosen't X3 have an integrated slicer/sampler feature?
2013/11/06 17:56:39
forkol
I still a bit surprised that X3 does not include even a basic slicer/sampler.  It seems every major DAW has this feature -- except SONAR.
 
Now, I know there's going to be the following suggestions, so I'd like to address them as well.
 
1) You can buy a third party solution (i.e., Kontakt).
I have several problems with this.  I think an integrated solution would be more elegant and streamlined.  Secondly, it seems a waste that you need to put out additional money for a feature that seems now quite common in other DAWs.
 
2) You can use Session Drummer 3 and slice from Audiosnap.
You can do this, but it's not a very good solution.  One reason is it's pretty cumbersome to prepare the slices using Audiosnap.  You have to copy each one from Audiosnap to SD3.  SD3 only has basic controls, no ADSR envelopes or filters.  Also, it's limited to about 10 samples or so.
 
If I were to plan this feature out (and I might do this as a feature request), I would basically like to see the Audiosnap window modified to add a function "Slice samples to Midi Track" and then have it create an instrument track (or something like an instrument track) with some kind of Cakewalk-integrated sampler as either an embedded sampler on that track, or even as a VST, if possible.  That sampler would be able to do basic wave editing, ADSR envelope and basic filtering.  I would also like the ability to drag and drop an Audiosnapped-slice to a slot in the sampler, and also allow any other operation in which you can grab a section of audio to either drag-drop or paste into a sampler slot.  
 
Currently, I'm doing this with things like Kontakt, Battery and SliceX, but I still think an integrated solution would be better as an all-around feature.
 
What do others think?
 
2013/11/06 18:47:03
dubdisciple
It's been suggested to them before and hopefully they will eventually pick up on it..  Like you said, there are ways to slice things in Sonar but it's not very elegant.  If I had to guess, the reason it's not included now is that it's not the forte of the current batch of programmers.  The last known hardcore instrument maker was Renee and there was originally hope Beatscape wasd a step in that direction but we see how that went. Cakewalk has addressed some short comings with third party software, but the best options along those lines probably wants too much in licensing fees or want to deliver something useless like Kontakt player.  With that said, I hope they address it.
2013/11/06 19:04:07
perfectprint
after watching plenty of sound design videos in ableton, I would love to have something like their sample editor incorporated into Sonar.
 

 
Nothing is going to compete with samplers like Kontakt or Maschine etc., but to be able to manipulate existing wave files on a track in Sonar would be a great workflow enhancement. I seriously think Loop Construction becoming a more flexible Sampler/Wave editor would be of great benefit.
 
At the moment the Loop Construction functions are pretty much useless, or redundant because of other workflow methods:
  • Pan and volume = track or clip automation
  • Pitch = much much better results with Process > Transpose (in fact LC pitch is unusable) 
  • Ctrl + Drag to time stretch always sounds way better while Ctrl + L always sounds grainy and full of artifacts, even after bouncing down.
Immediate access to Radius pitch shifting, reverse, warping, start/end, and so on just by double clicking any wave file, would be amazing. To see an example of how this workflow approach can be used to its full potential check out The Art of Mr Bill 2 on youtube.
 
 
2013/11/06 21:37:04
forkol
perfectprint
...
At the moment the Loop Construction functions are pretty much useless, or redundant because of other workflow methods:
  • Pan and volume = track or clip automation
  • Pitch = much much better results with Process > Transpose (in fact LC pitch is unusable) 
  • Ctrl + Drag to time stretch always sounds way better while Ctrl + L always sounds grainy and full of artifacts, even after bouncing down.
Immediate access to Radius pitch shifting, reverse, warping, start/end, and so on just by double clicking any wave file, would be amazing. To see an example of how this workflow approach can be used to its full potential check out The Art of Mr Bill 2 on youtube.



Perfectpitch, I was trying to be diplomatic, but I agree 100%, the current loop construction view is beyond useless.  Actually, I was very confused when Craig Anderton said that Sonar's strengths was in creating loops -- because I find it anything but that.
 
Also, I have to admit I'm quite envious of the way that Sampler and sample editing in general is implemented in Live -- so much so I now have a copy of Suite.    But, for me, if I could just get some decent sample slicing/editing with a basic sampler, that would be good enough for my needs.  Here's hoping Cakewalk does the kind of revisit/cleanup they did on take lanes to the loop construction/Audiosnap feature as well.
2013/11/06 21:45:54
Anderton
forkol
perfectprint
...
At the moment the Loop Construction functions are pretty much useless, or redundant because of other workflow methods:
  • Pan and volume = track or clip automation
  • Pitch = much much better results with Process > Transpose (in fact LC pitch is unusable) 
  • Ctrl + Drag to time stretch always sounds way better while Ctrl + L always sounds grainy and full of artifacts, even after bouncing down.
Immediate access to Radius pitch shifting, reverse, warping, start/end, and so on just by double clicking any wave file, would be amazing. To see an example of how this workflow approach can be used to its full potential check out The Art of Mr Bill 2 on youtube.



Perfectpitch, I was trying to be diplomatic, but I agree 100%, the current loop construction view is beyond useless.  Actually, I was very confused when Craig Anderton said that Sonar's strengths was in creating loops -- because I find it anything but that.




Believe me, most sample libraries are Acidized so poorly - with the notable exception of Sony's libraries - I have to edit the Acidization in the Loop Construction window just to get them to work the way they're supposed to.
 
Given that,  I will say that DSP has gotten really good, to the point where many people will no longer to need to use Acid or REX files. However, files stretched via DSP will not follow tempo changes in a song. As one of those old-school guys who believes that tempo variations allow music to "breathe," I find the ability to track tempo changes very important.
2013/11/06 22:17:48
Anderton
I think the big issue here is WAV and AIFF files. If you have REX files, the RXP player and Dropzone let you do all kinds of manipulation.
2013/11/07 01:45:41
Anderton
perfectprint
 
At the moment the Loop Construction functions are pretty much useless, or redundant because of other workflow methods:
  • Pitch = much much better results with Process > Transpose (in fact LC pitch is unusable) 
  • Ctrl + Drag to time stretch always sounds way better while Ctrl + L always sounds grainy and full of artifacts, even after bouncing down.



You have to differentiate between real-time and offline processes. An offline process will always sound better than one that has to be done on the fly, because the offline process has the time to do extensive DSP.
 
I've gotten into plenty of arguments with people who said Ableton Live had a horrible audio engine and it was the worst-sounding audio software in the world. They didn't realize the clips they were playing were undergoing pitch- and time-stretching. 
2013/11/07 02:51:09
perfectprint
with you on the realtime/offline differences. I have a key binding set for bounce downs, it gets used habitually.
 
I dont even have Dropzone or RXP on my computer anymore to comment on their efficiency as I use NI products for my VSTi sampling needs, but I still think there is an opportunity to do a lot with Loop Construction. Maybe even so far as to take advantage of ARA to open up an advanced wave editor with some Kontakt/Sampler/Phalanx type processing!
2013/11/07 05:06:04
lawp
REX (and RX2) files are proprietary and one needs to buy recycle or reason to make ones own
 
Shortcircuit is a now-free sampler that includes slicing functionality
(http://vemberaudio.se/shortcircuit.php )
 
personally I use Linplug's RMV for creative slicey-dicey
(http://linplug.com/rmv.html )
 
2013/11/07 05:11:13
Microtonic
YES! YES! YES! More modern instruments! More integration! I wrote a lot of interesting ideas for Russian Roland Sonar Team but... Sonar X1 don`t have it... Sonar X2 don`t have it, Sonar X3 don`t have it... 
Other DAW make it, but Sonat don`t have it. :) 
 
Sonar is not for experemental or progression electronic musician. Sonar don`t have simple modules and tools for the experemental audio edition like Battery, SliceX.
Today Sonar X3c don`t have normal and modern drum pad VSTi.
Yes... SD3 or RXP-player can help but not for all. RXP-player don`t have x64 version and this is old VSTi.
 
Sonar good DAW for other music but for psychedelic chill, for modern electronic and progressive club dance music - No. Yes... we can do it in Sonar but we don`t have simple tools for this...
Reaper, FL Studio, Studio One, Ableton they have more interest idea for this creativity.
Sonar X3c good for standart music work.
 
Sonar... let`s go...
 
Slicer and Sampler must be in Sonar.
-select rex files in brouser
-right clik
-load in to Sonar Rex Sampler
 
after that I have automatically created instrument track with midi-clip.
 
Or if I load audio in to the Loop Constuction I must have possibility to automatically load it in to Slicer Sampler and automatically created midi-Slicer-clip
 
Next level:
-right clip to clip (or selection part)
-load in to Drum Pad VSTi (Sonar must have interesting Drum Pad VSTi)
-after I have automatically created Instrument track with this samples in Pad number-1.
Then... Load next clip in to the Drum Pad
- this sample automatically load in to Drum Pad Number-2
 
Future?
No! Some DAW have this today!
 
Sonar Must transform Step Sequencer to the Next level! - Integrate new Sonar Drum Pad VSTi with Step Sequencer and make this functionality - Drag&Drop clip or samples in to the Step Sequnser! This clip automatically load in to Drum Pad VSTi.
 
Up to next level Loop Construction... 
 
Start make it now! :)
 
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