• SONAR
  • The way Sonar plays back midi sequences (p.3)
2013/09/20 17:00:59
brundlefly
Cactus Music
That's right, we  I still think the Atari had  a better MIDI "feel" . ha! Good post  ++1 
 

 
Yeah, but not as good as my 48-PPQ Roland PMA-5.
 
2013/09/20 20:08:45
joden
brundlefly
 
Yeah, but not as good as my 48-PPQ Roland PMA-5.
 



 
Now THAT was a great little bit of kit!! I wish at times I still had mine.
2013/09/21 15:39:37
konradh
We struggled for years in the studio trying to get people to play perfectly in time.  We used click tracks, we punched in, we re-did recordings, etc.
 
Then when we had digital samples in a drum machine, people* started complaining that it sounded too mechanical.
 
Just saying.
 
*Music people—not the people buying the CDs.
2013/09/21 15:52:04
jsg
There's an old joke:  Acoustic musicians spend their careers learning how to play on the beat, electronic musicians spend their careers learning how to play off the beat.
 
The precise timing of a computer is not a musical detriment.  One poster said "let's try something different and NOT make this issue user-related or music ability related."
 
But timing and musical flow IS related to musical ability and technique.  Attack times, release times, velocities, note lengths, articulation, where the note is relative to the beat--these and more go into what's traditionally known as phrasing.  Phrasing is as important to electronic music production as it is to acoustic music performance.  Phrasing is where gesture, nuance and expression exists.  As I tell my students and my workshop participants, MIDI doesn't make things easy, it makes things possible.   Whether you play music into a sequence or step-time it, the key is phrasing; if you don't do it physically you have to do it conceptually.  Which is why producing a piece of music with a sequencer is really about 90% editing. 
 
If you examine the event list of a successfully produced piece of music using sample libraries and/or synths, you will find an abundance of controller changes, tempo changes, patch changes, etc.   The lack of these things contribute to a rigid or lackluster performance, not the precision and timing of your sequencer.  I am assuming of course that the studio is in proper working order and there are no software or hardware glitches or bugs that make this impossible.
 
I recommend listening to my Symphony #8 (linked below) that demonstrates what I'm writing about.  I included the score for those so inclined.
 
JG
http://www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
 
 
 
2013/09/21 16:30:25
Jeff Evans
I think there is something else going on here and it has not been mentioned. It is not about timing resolution or quantising etc. And this is one of the more subtle aspects of DAW software but it still has the potential to effect some people. It is how well the DAW handles midi timing over the whole period and in relation to the audio side of the program and remember the audio side can include the metronome too.
 
I am a drummer of over 40 years and also have come from a large external midi system and being a drummer I am a bit sensitive to groove and feel of how parts play. And that is parts that are either live and not altered and quantised.  I still produce a lot of sound externally at times and much of it can be very fast and percussive in nature so I like everything to groove and sit well naturally. Firstly I find that it all can be done.
 
I am running a Unitor 8 midi interface on the serial port and I am convinced it is one of the reasons I experience such tight and relentless midi timing on my system. I only have 8 serious hardware sound generators which means they have their own midi port. All 8 can sound a note at exactly at the same time if needed with none of them having to shift timing wise due to the midi serial nature of the signal. I often only ask one midi port to handle 1 to 2 midi channels which means very fast timing on each port still to hear 16 devices all playing back at once. (my new Kurzweil PC3K is the fastest thing I have ever owned for how quickly something can make sound after receiving a note, it is ridiculous. All hardware synths vary with this and it needs to be tested and tracks adjusted accordingly)
 
I also like tweaking the track settings for advancing or delaying some midi tracks in relation to others and the metronome too. How well does everything sit in relation to the metronome. And which metronome are we talking about too, Audio or Midi. They won't agree and one will need to be adjusted in relation to the other.
 
I believe different DAW's handle all this in different ways and I think there is truth in what the OP originally had to say. There is something else I am convinced of and that is how well a DAW handles all the midi timing over a long period in relation to the audio side of what is going on eg how well are those two things kept in sync? Yes they all feel a little different and I have been using Logic for many years and I can tell you that all the midi works nicely in that. Midi Audio relationship is good in Logic as well. Sonar is not high up on the list for me as to how it handles these things. I have found with 8.5 anyway that midi (even quantised) can get effected during heavy audio operations. Sonar was better for me when it was working with midi data only.
 
I am using Studio One now and it has relentless midi timing and feel and it all seems to rock on without being influenced by how hard the audio side is working. Somehow they keep everything in sync and over a long period too. There is even mention of its ability to record and playback midi very accurately something that is played in. If you can really groove with a live keyboard part I have found Studio One records all this and plays it back rather musically and never changes what was played in. Its gapless engine also allows perfect relentless looping without any glitches. I believe there may be something deeply embedded in the audio engine code that refers to timing and timing priority of audio and midi. It won't be possible to suddenly fix a non gapless engine either that I am sure of. It would have done by now.
 
It is one of the main reasons I use it because of the way it handles this and how it feels under pressure as well. Lot of things going on audio and midi all at the same time and how well everything relates to either the audio or the midi metronome. All tight and fast and feels good.  It also has the ability to capture live loop recording while jumping midi tracks and adding in new material. You can go in and edit all the midi data all while the music plays without a hitch too which is fast and intuitive and bloody great!
2013/09/21 18:52:40
Brando
Jeff Evans
I have found with 8.5 anyway that midi (even quantised) can get effected during heavy audio operations. Sonar was better for me when it was working with midi data only.  I am using Studio One now and it has relentless midi timing and feel and it all seems to rock on without being influenced by how hard the audio side is working. Somehow they keep everything in sync and over a long period too.


No disrespect Jeff- however the OP referred to MIDI playback relentlessly/rigidly keeping time in SONAR not MIDI deviating under Audio load.
Thanks for the Studio 1 infomercial though.
2013/09/21 19:00:50
Kewl Hendagang
@Jeff
 
at last, this is adressing my issue -
 
but it's not good news then... since it seems completely related to the core of the engine from what you
seem to be explaining
 
 
 
2013/09/21 19:11:29
Brando
Kewl Hendagang
@Jeff at last, this is adressing my issue - but it's not good news then... since it seems completely related to the core of the engine from what youseem to be explaining   


Seems easy then - just buy Studio One
2013/09/21 19:28:31
Kewl Hendagang
@brando
 
exactly the kind of childish attitude I'll never understand.
 
I don't feel like changing software, I love Sonar for production/editing/mixing
 
But for straight creation with softsynths only, sorry it's just not ''there''. The
way it reacts to your input doesn't keep you in the creative brain, you go
technical too soon to fix timing issues and other oddities.
 
so if something in the engine needs to be fixed, then, it should be fixed.
 
2013/09/21 19:55:37
jb101
Where I see the OP's theory and Jeff's differ, is that the OP suggests that with other DAWs "It just sounds more ''alive'', less rigid, even when everything is hard quantized".
 
Surely, if Sonars timing was off, it would sound anything but "rigid".
 
I would have thought that something quantised 100% should sound "rigid", and if it sounds "alive, less rigid" then something is amiss.
 
As a bit of background, the first sequencer I used was CV/Gate.  I then used MIDI hardware sequencers (and software on Atari and Amiga), owned one of the first MIDI equipped synths (and I also bought Roland's first MIDI synth), and worked extensively in the eighties with a Simmons kit (as a session drummer) triggering via MIDI.
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