I need both.
 
Today I listened to a recording I did with Cake back in 2002.  I was surprised how much more I like my playing in that project now than I did when I abandoned it.  I also recognized right away a bazillion things I need to do on the DAW side to improve it overall.
 
I'll be reviving that one for sure.

We all have a finite capacity for absorbing knowledge, a limit that lowers as you age. (You 20-somethings need not feel smug about that; you've already peaked, too.)
 
The solution: eliminate the time wasters from your life. Television, video games, YouTube. Cooking your own meals. Changing your own oil. Talking to your kids. Exercise. Sex. Forum posting.
 
This, at least, is my theory.

Kev999

craigb
...there's far more right brain (creative) involved with learning an instrument and far more left brain (logical) when learning a DAW.  Unless you're a very balanced (so-called "Whole-brain") type, you're going to struggle learning one more than the other.

 
I try to use both sides whatever I'm doing, whether it's creative or technical. I don't claim to be well-balanced though.

I hear that
 

Slugbaby
I was a musician for 20+ years before getting my first DAW.  I found that the confidence with my musicianship helped to define where my recordings were lacking.  I could trust that the music was played properly, so any deficiencies were likely in the recording or mixing techniques.
That gave me the information I needed to investigate the DAW-related processes to get closer to my ideal end product.  
 
Then I realized that a talented engineer/producer could do much better than me, so i give him the recorded tracks and a note saying "fix/mix it!"  With age comes the (occasional) wisdom to recognize my limitations.  

Thank you for sharing that  Slugbaby.
As far as my playing went , I was playing with and had access to musicians that were much further along career wise than I was ..
I was constantly thrust into musical situations where I was being exposed to music with players that challenged me to grow as a guitar player , well rounded musician and human being ...
FWIW most of this era of my playing was done in the older model of the music business ..what I mean by that is people would play together and when they decided to record they would go into a Pro name recording studio to cut song demos to bring to record company's .
I feel lucky that I had caught the tail end of that era ...then I started out on my own ....it's been down hill ever since
I'm with you on the whole using professional engineers /players and whomever that can assist in bringing the music to where it should or could be  ...
What ever time I have spent trying to learn the DAW and all the nuances of engineering have not been a waste of my time ...I do feel that it has been helpful to a degree ...
A person has to do what they have to do to put themselves in a position to be able to create music , network and make the rounds ...
One day soon I hope to find out what the difference would be by taking my absolute best to a Pro and having them
bring their skills and talents to the table using Pro gear ...In my case it's a money thing plus my focus is still over the place ...I haven't found that one special tune or project that would warrant that type of expenditure ....
 nice talking with you ....
 

bapu
What slug says, except I had been programming business applications for 15 or so years before I started with MIDI sequencing and had been recording to tape (analog and ADATS) and then moved on to audio recording in a DAW.
 
And thus the DAW concept was not entirely foreign to me. And yes I have learned new ways to skin an old cat but thankfully not with shell shock.
 

That's cool Ed thank you for sharing that .
I've had a midi guitar since 1983 ...back then most of my midi experiences were VIA using floppy disk hardware midi sequencers ....then a 4 track ( audio tape ) ....mostly for my own hobby ...then as a player / sideman I was playing out a lot and I didn't have the time to focus on that end of things ...
A couple of years before I joined this forum I had bought a Boss BR1180  CD and started getting back into self recording ....then I wound up here when I started using Home Studio 2 ....
still here .....still trying to figure it all out
 
all the best ,
 
Kenny
 

kennywtelejazz
 
I'm with you on the whole using professional engineers /players and whomever that can assist in bringing the music to where it should or could be  ...
What ever time I have spent trying to learn the DAW and all the nuances of engineering have not been a waste of my time ...I do feel that it has been helpful to a degree ...
A person has to do what they have to do to put themselves in a position to be able to create music , network and make the rounds ...
One day soon I hope to find out what the difference would be by taking my absolute best to a Pro and having them
bring their skills and talents to the table using Pro gear ...In my case it's a money thing plus my focus is still over the place ...I haven't found that one special tune or project that would warrant that type of expenditure ....
 nice talking with you ....
 

Like you, i caught the tail end of the "play until you've got the songs ready, then head into a Pro studio and spend $$$ on a record/demo."
I had never wanted to use a pro to finish my music. I've always preferred to produce my own product, but only ever got to the 90% mark.  I kept thinking "remember - it's a home recording" whenever someone heard it.  
I played briefly with a pianist who was also a great engineer/producer.  When I was trying to mix my last project, i asked him for some advice and he talked me into hiring him.  I was hesitant, and it wasn't cheap (but much better than I'd expected).  We started with him mixing 2 songs, just to see if it was what I wanted.  But not only did he mix well, he gave great arrangement suggestions, added some keys, and pushed my record from my usual "90%" up to "110%."  The end product was MUCH better than I'd expected.  It's (slowly) selling online, and for the first time I can be proud of my album with no excuses - well worth the money I paid him (for all 8 songs).
 
I'll be hiring him again for my current project as soon as I find some money...  Until then i'll be listening to my underwhelming self-produced tracks.  
 
If you can swing it, and you find the right engineer/producer, it's WELL worth it!

Guitarhacker
I had the musical side together before I started into the recording side.
 
It was, for me, a simple matter of finding the most efficient way to work with the DAW so that it didn't interfere with the creative process.   Find the easy path and things work out.   I tried purposely to avoid getting too deep into the technical aspects. It's easy to chase rabbit trails and before long, you've wasted an hour or more, accomplished little to nothing, and lost the creative spark.
 
My goal in learning the DAW was to make it as transparent to the process as possible. This is especially true in the tracking stages of the project.  Now... once the tracking is done, then, it's more acceptable to me, to spend greater amounts of time on the minutia in the mix.

Very good points Herb
 
On the guitar end of things I enjoy new challenges .
Working on the sub atomic relationships of chords , notes, phrases , melody's and any other number of the intricate musical treasures that I have found playing the guitar has given me a meaning and purpose in my life ....   
 
 
The opposite side of the coin is sort of the main Rub I have with my alliance and association the DAW ...
 
I did have a lot of transparency using my DAW for almost 10 years  ...
I had gotten to a point where it was somewhat an extension of my music and I did consider it to be a creative outlet...
What i did not know didn't ever hold me back ...I enjoyed using the versions of SONAR I had at the time..
What changed was I wound up moving to a new place and upgrading my DAW and computers ....
Now I'm up to my eyeballs drowning in learning curve ......
 
It's been nice talking with you Herb
 

jamesg1213

kennywtelejazz
Both learning activity's seem very necessary to bring one's own personal Music creation to the next level .... 
I've been wrestling with this one myself for a long while ....
I'm curious to hear how folks around here balance both learning curves  .
 
all the best ,
 
Kenny

I don't really think I've got very far with either, and probably never will now. Just being realistic. I listen to stuff I did 7 or 8 years ago against later recordings and there isn't a huge difference, to my ears. I suppose sometime you just reach a plateau.
 

Hi James,
 
Yes , we had a good thing going back then ...
Lot's of great people to collab with and bounce musical Ideas of off...
The songs forum was super hot with some really good tunes and collabs ...
A lot of us were putting out tunes like crazy ...You were leading the charge w SMB ,  Tim and your own music ...
You still have it going on my friend I enjoy your music and guitar playing ...
 
I can't help but think that I sort of climbed into a musical rut and decorated it ...
for lack of a better way of putting it .....some of the thrill is gone ...maybe I'm just getting old and I don't feel like jumping through all the hoops it would take to get as comfortable using my DAW on the same level as I can play ...
I have always kept my playing very close to the vest because I want to do my own thing ...yet , it seems like I'm taking the hard road to pave a different unique path of self expression ...
Some of what I what I enjoy playing is not relevant in today's music bizz ...that's a choice I made ...
Any choice I have made I can always choose to modify by choosing differently ....
 
I'm glad I started the thread ...at least all this is out in the open for now ...
I'm gonna give time time to see how this plays out ....it has been nice talking with you James ..
 
all the best,
 
Kenny
 

Hi,
 
It's really strange ... as much as I am comfortable with computers and setting them up and fixing them, trying to learn a DAW is really difficult for me. I failed with Abelton Live (the early version 5 years ago) and then tried Music Creator, and that went down worse, and then picked up  the Sonar package ... and I'm even more lost than before ... probably because I am partially blind, and the screen has too many things in it, for me to be able to learn what to do with them at the same time. In this sense, the plain screen a la Office and such, with just the small icons is easier for me, because I can at least write down something and then come back to it and enhance it ... I haven't even been able to do that on a DAW, yet, comfortably, and trying to get some help has been worse than pulling your teeth with dental floss.
 
Something simpler ... is that a lot to ask?
 
As for learning an instrument, yeah ... I would like to get my DAW skills up some, and two classes so far have not helped crystallize anything whatsoever, probably because I was turned off by having to learn how to do a DJ thing. I wanted to plug in an instrument, record it and then add to it, for example. Simple as it comes. However, seeing some software fail at doing something that you imagine that it specifically says it can be done, is worse. I have had major issues with IKT and their software that supposedly allows two things to be used at the same time, and the midi channels are not available ... they are gray'd out! And their support and anyone else? Worse!
 
I will likely end up in keyboards full blast ... but I'm having a hard time getting past the stage one ... trying to translate what I hear, and would like to do, and not be able to translate it with the things I have, and perhaps some help from the outside in helping translate some of the things I have in my head.
 
For example ... might be simple for someone, but I have not been able to do it ... play one note and extend it to infinity ... or play 20 notes and have them repeat for a while, for example ... dumb things that have been around for 30/35 years, but I'm not able to find help on it.
 
I'm not even sure I have the right pieces to do something close to what I imagine, but only an outside person would be able to see that and help me see these things better, or clearer.

kennywtelejazz
 
Hi James,
 
Yes , we had a good thing going back then ...
Lot's of great people to collab with and bounce musical Ideas of off...
The songs forum was super hot with some really good tunes and collabs ...
A lot of us were putting out tunes like crazy ...You were leading the charge w SMB ,  Tim and your own music ...
You still have it going on my friend I enjoy your music and guitar playing ...
 
I can't help but think that I sort of climbed into a musical rut and decorated it ...
for lack of a better way of putting it .....some of the thrill is gone ...maybe I'm just getting old and I don't feel like jumping through all the hoops it would take to get as comfortable using my DAW on the same level as I can play ...
I have always kept my playing very close to the vest because I want to do my own thing ...yet , it seems like I'm taking the hard road to pave a different unique path of self expression ...
Some of what I what I enjoy playing is not relevant in today's music bizz ...that's a choice I made ...
Any choice I have made I can always choose to modify by choosing differently ....
 
I'm glad I started the thread ...at least all this is out in the open for now ...
I'm gonna give time time to see how this plays out ....it has been nice talking with you James ..
 
all the best,
 
Kenny
 

 
Thanks for that Kenny, very kind of you. It was a very creative time a few years back, you're right. Seemed to be collabs going on all the time.
 
Maybe I need to focus on doing more of that, stretching my abilities a bit by playing other styles/genres.
 
I have to admit that lately I fire up Sonar professional, and feel my creativity drain away very quickly. That certainly wasn't the case in the past.

Slugbaby
I was a musician for 20+ years before getting my first DAW.  

Come to think of it, I was a musician 20 years before DAWs were even invented.  
 
My first proper home rig, circa 1976, was a TEAC 3340S and a Pioneer 2-track for mixdown. I did add a computer in the 80's, but it was just a MIDI sequencer (Cakewalk 1.0, natch). I didn't attempt to record audio onto a computer until 2004. Thought it was a passing fad.

bapu
So, I'm a month shy of 10 years in this forum and where I dove full fledged into DAW recording.
 
I'd say my engineering skills have improved from then until now. My playing skills, nah. Mainly because for every hour of playing I do I probably spend 4-5 hours at the engineering process.
 
I must agree with my mayte Jaymes though, I've probably hit my plateau in all areas of music and so now I can just enjoy the ride and try not to be too critical of the results.
 
If I was 40 or even 30, that would be a horse of a different story. I'd be pushing like mad.

ED,
 
Congrats on you upcoming 10 years here on the forum
From what I have heard over the years , I would say you have decent chops on the tech end of things .
Sure I understand the whole growth / plateau feeling ...it is only a feeling and thankfully feelings aren't facts  .
One nice thing about getting older is I have found that I have encountered many times where I felt I was not making growth or progress ...Having gotten through to the other end and looking back in hindsight the growth that took place was significant  ....I wish I knew why that was ...
nice talking w you ,
 

Starise
I thought I could juggle the two well but in reality I can't do both well at the same time. I've picked up a new instrument to learn in addition to what I already knew.
 
My intention was to do some of one and then some technical recording. I have the bent to immerse in whatever I'm doing and when I get in that groove I have a tough time pulling away from it.
 
Sad to say I've been putting lots of time into the instrument and letting my recording skills slide. I know it's the only way I'm going to be a better player. I look at the clock and two hours went by, I'm dead tired and say to myself, " I'll do the other stuff tomorrow". Tomorrow comes and I do the same thing again. I'm in a learning rut of sorts right now. It borders on an obsession.
 
On the plus side, I'm doing very well for someone who hasn't been at my instrument for more than a year. Having prior instruments and training might have helped some....but I'm nowhere near my goal yet. Progress is small and slow lately. I'm into some of the more intensive learning curves on the instrument now and it's slow progress, sometimes seems like one step forward and three steps back. Doesn't help that there are people who are years younger than me that can do what I struggle with easily...I have to remind myself they started when they were 6. By the time they're 16 they're pretty good at it.
 
I get into the same "rut" with recording. I get overly immersed in the finer points of the technicals and let my chops slide. So far I haven't realistically been able to be intensive with both at the same time. 
 
 

Hello Timothy ,
 
Thank you for your post I enjoyed reading it .
From what I have read it is my feeling that you and I have a lot in common when it comes to this type of thing ....
 
In May I picked up an 8 string guitar . I played the hell out of it until the "honeymoon" sort of ended about two weeks ago .
I enjoyed every element of the personal challenge this instrument presented me with .
During that time I tried my best to double down on learning SONAR by watching some vids I had bought from Groove 3 and doing tech specific tutorials ...
It felt like I was back in school doing my homework just to get it done so I could go out and play ....my heart just wasn't into it ....(that falls on me ) ....
My main instrument happens to be guitar yet, over the years I have gravitated to investing some of my spare change and money into other stringed instruments that are in the fretted string category that I can learn and double on ....
If anything I have become a much better guitarist as a result learning to play these instruments  ...
 
The most important musical tool I have ever used to learn anything musical by ear is a program called Transcribe
https://www.seventhstring.om/xscribe/overview.html
I strongly urge you if you have not tried this program to download the demo ....  30 days unrestricted use.
(BTW I have  no affiliation w the company ) 
 
It is my humble opinion that this program can help you catch up and learn what you need to learn fast and within your own comfort zone as a player ....
 
As far as what other people are doing out there ...younger , older , faster slower , smarter ...not smarter ...lol 
Well good for them
I'm here to do my own thing and hopefully serve to make this world a better place with my music ....
 
all the best ,
 
Kenny
 

I don't know when exactly, but I reached a point where I realized that I didn't have the talent to be a "real" musician. I've always loved stringed instruments and collected them as functional art. Around 1990 I started buying vintage tube amps and was soon doing my own repairs. Once I had the bug I couldn't stop and my tech skills bloomed as my playing skills stalled. I know a lot of really good players and none of them really have a clue about the tech side. The gear is just the toolkit. The same goes for DAW's. Great players seem to focus on the playing and let others worry about the tech side. 
I play enough for my own pleasure and I can really help great players get their sound as good as their playing skills. I'm OK with that and don't feel inferior. My musician buddies don't mind either and have never treated me as just the tech guy.