Becoming adept at using the DAW and learning how to engineer and produce over these last twenty years as been my vocation and avocation.  And I won't deny I really like finally having all the tools I need to produce just about anything that comes into my tiny demented brain.  BUT...it has ruined my playing chops.
 
I very seldom play out, although my best friends are killer players and are constantly asking me to sit in with their groups.  And I'll admit I love being on stage and miss it terribly.  But I just can't fathom going out to some club at around 10pm...heck, that's nearly my bedtime now...and stepping back into the noise, confusion and (usually) too loud cacophany of live performance.  
 
Years ago, when I was earning my living in Nashville, I could hold my own with most.  Now I'd be embarrassed to play with any of my old bandmates and session guys.  It's my own fault, of course, I don't practice...I just produce.  Heck, I never did practice...I just played all day and all night most every day of the week.  
 
Now I'm reduced to being able to "fool" most folks either by production tricks or muscle memory licks into thinking I might be a decent player.  But those days are gone.
 

My muscle memory keeps saying "You were never that good, remember?" 

BobF
I need both.
 
Today I listened to a recording I did with Cake back in 2002.  I was surprised how much more I like my playing in that project now than I did when I abandoned it.  I also recognized right away a bazillion things I need to do on the DAW side to improve it overall.
 
I'll be reviving that one for sure.

Hi Bob ,
 
Yes it is a given that I need to do both real real bad ..
Hey , Wow ! you certainly do go back a long while around here ....2002 ....congrats .
Elder Statesman status type respect goes out too you from me ...
I know exactly what you mean when you say that you have projects / tune ideas that were abandoned due to various reasons at the time of their inception ...got a few dating back from 2005 that could sure use a little TLC .
I guess it's like the thing people usually say about mixing where it's always a good idea to get a bit of time away from a song to be able to hear it with fresh ears ....like you when i go back even that far back , I have heard things I was happy I recorded ..  I never ever record a guitar part unless I'm into it ...so on that front yeah , there are a few unexpected ideas and surprises mixed in with some real crappy place holder tracks or production disasters  
This year I did go back and redo 2 of my solo guitar tunes strictly from the DAW side ...
She Was O...F..and Gentle Gypsy L....IMHO ...they are much closer to where they should / could be ....
nice talking w you ....
 

bitflipper
We all have a finite capacity for absorbing knowledge, a limit that lowers as you age. (You 20-somethings need not feel smug about that; you've already peaked, too.)
 
The solution: eliminate the time wasters from your life. Television, video games, YouTube. Cooking your own meals. Changing your own oil. Talking to your kids. Exercise. Sex. Forum posting.
 
This, at least, is my theory.

Hello Dave ,
 
There is a lot of Wisdom in your post . Also there is a lot of humor in your post
Thank you for sharing ,
 

Slugbaby
 
Like you, i caught the tail end of the "play until you've got the songs ready, then head into a Pro studio and spend $$$ on a record/demo."
I had never wanted to use a pro to finish my music. I've always preferred to produce my own product, but only ever got to the 90% mark.  I kept thinking "remember - it's a home recording" whenever someone heard it.  
I played briefly with a pianist who was also a great engineer/producer.  When I was trying to mix my last project, i asked him for some advice and he talked me into hiring him.  I was hesitant, and it wasn't cheap (but much better than I'd expected).  We started with him mixing 2 songs, just to see if it was what I wanted.  But not only did he mix well, he gave great arrangement suggestions, added some keys, and pushed my record from my usual "90%" up to "110%."  The end product was MUCH better than I'd expected.  It's (slowly) selling online, and for the first time I can be proud of my album with no excuses - well worth the money I paid him (for all 8 songs).
 
I'll be hiring him again for my current project as soon as I find some money...  Until then i'll be listening to my underwhelming self-produced tracks.  
 
If you can swing it, and you find the right engineer/producer, it's WELL worth it!

Hi Slugbaby ,
 
It's very good to hear that you had a very good experience with the multi talented  musician you hired ....
I wish you the best of luck with your CD sales and I hope that somebody may use your songs for something like a film or any other number of uses music can provide 
Thank you for the inspiration .
 

Moshkito
Hi,
 
It's really strange ... as much as I am comfortable with computers and setting them up and fixing them, trying to learn a DAW is really difficult for me. I failed with Abelton Live (the early version 5 years ago) and then tried Music Creator, and that went down worse, and then picked up  the Sonar package ... and I'm even more lost than before ... probably because I am partially blind, and the screen has too many things in it, for me to be able to learn what to do with them at the same time. In this sense, the plain screen a la Office and such, with just the small icons is easier for me, because I can at least write down something and then come back to it and enhance it ... I haven't even been able to do that on a DAW, yet, comfortably, and trying to get some help has been worse than pulling your teeth with dental floss.
 
Something simpler ... is that a lot to ask?
 
As for learning an instrument, yeah ... I would like to get my DAW skills up some, and two classes so far have not helped crystallize anything whatsoever, probably because I was turned off by having to learn how to do a DJ thing. I wanted to plug in an instrument, record it and then add to it, for example. Simple as it comes. However, seeing some software fail at doing something that you imagine that it specifically says it can be done, is worse. I have had major issues with IKT and their software that supposedly allows two things to be used at the same time, and the midi channels are not available ... they are gray'd out! And their support and anyone else? Worse!
 
I will likely end up in keyboards full blast ... but I'm having a hard time getting past the stage one ... trying to translate what I hear, and would like to do, and not be able to translate it with the things I have, and perhaps some help from the outside in helping translate some of the things I have in my head.
 
For example ... might be simple for someone, but I have not been able to do it ... play one note and extend it to infinity ... or play 20 notes and have them repeat for a while, for example ... dumb things that have been around for 30/35 years, but I'm not able to find help on it.
 
I'm not even sure I have the right pieces to do something close to what I imagine, but only an outside person would be able to see that and help me see these things better, or clearer.

Hi Pedro ,
 
You are a smart guy and I do get where you are coming from ...
Learning how to use a  DAW efficiently with any level of creatively takes a lot of work and commitment
 
Have you started specific threads asking for help on the forum ?
ex, setting up your sound card , setting up your midi , recording audio , editing audio , recording midi ,editing midi 
inserting synths , inserting plugs , various views and how to work in them ...
importing audio , midi , video ....exporting audio , midi , video .....
 
If you have tried those things and you still feel stuck . Then  it sounds like to me that you just need a little one on one time with somebody to help you along with the basics of using SONAR (or fill in the blank for the chosen DAW )
 
hang in there .....help may be closer than you think .......
 
all the best,
 
Kenny

jamesg1213

kennywtelejazz
 
Hi James,
 
Yes , we had a good thing going back then ...
Lot's of great people to collab with and bounce musical Ideas of off...
The songs forum was super hot with some really good tunes and collabs ...
A lot of us were putting out tunes like crazy ...You were leading the charge w SMB ,  Tim and your own music ...
You still have it going on my friend I enjoy your music and guitar playing ...
 
I can't help but think that I sort of climbed into a musical rut and decorated it ...
for lack of a better way of putting it .....some of the thrill is gone ...maybe I'm just getting old and I don't feel like jumping through all the hoops it would take to get as comfortable using my DAW on the same level as I can play ...
I have always kept my playing very close to the vest because I want to do my own thing ...yet , it seems like I'm taking the hard road to pave a different unique path of self expression ...
Some of what I what I enjoy playing is not relevant in today's music bizz ...that's a choice I made ...
Any choice I have made I can always choose to modify by choosing differently ....
 
I'm glad I started the thread ...at least all this is out in the open for now ...
I'm gonna give time time to see how this plays out ....it has been nice talking with you James ..
 
all the best,
 
Kenny
 

 
Thanks for that Kenny, very kind of you. It was a very creative time a few years back, you're right. Seemed to be collabs going on all the time.
 
Maybe I need to focus on doing more of that, stretching my abilities a bit by playing other styles/genres.
 
I have to admit that lately I fire up Sonar professional, and feel my creativity drain away very quickly. That certainly wasn't the case in the past.

Hi James,
 
Yes , I tend to think that I enjoy the challenges of doing music when I'm working with people that bring skills to the table I myself personally don't have on instruments that I'm only a hack on ....you know stuff like drums, keys , vocals , bowed strings, castanets , triangle , xylophone and tuba
 
Playing in other styles is definitely a good musical door opener ..
Love also learning stuff on the guitar that was played on other instruments or sang by a singer ...that's what I do to stay fresh and interested in playing the guitar ..
 
I know exactly what you mean about the energy drain ...I'm still dealing with it myself ...
it was nice talking with you ,
 

ampfixer
I don't know when exactly, but I reached a point where I realized that I didn't have the talent to be a "real" musician. I've always loved stringed instruments and collected them as functional art. Around 1990 I started buying vintage tube amps and was soon doing my own repairs. Once I had the bug I couldn't stop and my tech skills bloomed as my playing skills stalled. I know a lot of really good players and none of them really have a clue about the tech side. The gear is just the toolkit. The same goes for DAW's. Great players seem to focus on the playing and let others worry about the tech side. 
I play enough for my own pleasure and I can really help great players get their sound as good as their playing skills. I'm OK with that and don't feel inferior. My musician buddies don't mind either and have never treated me as just the tech guy.

ampfixer , hey man thanks for sharing that you said a lot of great things ...
 
all the best,
 
Kenny
 
 
 

yorolpal
Becoming adept at using the DAW and learning how to engineer and produce over these last twenty years as been my vocation and avocation.  And I won't deny I really like finally having all the tools I need to produce just about anything that comes into my tiny demented brain.  BUT...it has ruined my playing chops.
 
I very seldom play out, although my best friends are killer players and are constantly asking me to sit in with their groups.  And I'll admit I love being on stage and miss it terribly.  But I just can't fathom going out to some club at around 10pm...heck, that's nearly my bedtime now...and stepping back into the noise, confusion and (usually) too loud cacophany of live performance.  
 
Years ago, when I was earning my living in Nashville, I could hold my own with most.  Now I'd be embarrassed to play with any of my old bandmates and session guys.  It's my own fault, of course, I don't practice...I just produce.  Heck, I never did practice...I just played all day and all night most every day of the week.  
 
Now I'm reduced to being able to "fool" most folks either by production tricks or muscle memory licks into thinking I might be a decent player.  But those days are gone.
 

Nice post yorolpal ,
 
Yes , learning how to use all the " tools correctly "  stuff like the equalizers , compressors, 3 rd party synths , plugs and each and every self contained VST dodad that can make an interesting sound is absolutely mind blowing to me ...
IMHO , it takes just as much consistency and creativity to produce satisfying results using those tools as it does to play a musical instrument well...
I got the ears , but not the chops in that particular musical environment ...
I honestly do respect you and the people that can go there ....some day I wish to get a lot better in that area ..
 
all the best ,
 
Kenny 
 

I really struggle with short concentrating span. So I cant repeat guitar tasks longer than short periods, witch makes it useless. That's my problem.

I started playing guitar at 19 (way to late, I know), and started with digital recording when I was 27 (Pro Audio 9). 
I knew early that I didn't have what it takes to make it as a pro guitarist, but that doesn't stop me from playing one in my studio 
I also tried to balance playing and producing for some years, and ended up not getting better at anything.
Lately I have tried to focus more on mixing / producing, and it feels like it has helped my inspiration, and joy of playing guitar again. I even took up drumming two years ago, to have another source of inspiration.
It seems like I need (fresh) input to keep inspired. And the more inspired I get, the more and better I seem to perform over time.
All the best.

Jarsve
I really struggle with short concentrating span. So I cant repeat guitar tasks longer than short periods, witch makes it useless. That's my problem.

I hear ya.  By the time I get half way good playing a tune I hate it so much I never want to play it again

Interesting thread Kenny. Since day 1 of this DAW thing, I've relied on treating it like the old analog studios of old. I've yet to try and learn midi or even one of the drum programs. I knew how to mix and record going in. It was just a matter of using a mouse to turn the knobs on plugins instead of my fingers.
 
I do remember one thing from when I started down this DAW road. When I got my first DAW (Guitar Tracks) I hadn't played live in a few years and my playing/practicing routine consisted of playing along with CDs. When I started recording I was shocked at how sloppy my playing had become from that. Of course, being the knuckle head I am, I jumped right in doing collabs with the likes of James, Larry Hansen and Mark Wessels. When you get tracks from those guys, you quickly realize you better step up your game. So thanks for that guys.

craigb
My muscle memory keeps saying "You were never that good, remember?" 

 
Craig ,
 
The way things are now a days  , you don't have to be all that good
 

Jarsve
I really struggle with short concentrating span. So I cant repeat guitar tasks longer than short periods, witch makes it useless. That's my problem.

Hi Jarsve ,
 
I got that type of thing going on with the DAW side of things ...It ain't coming easy for me ...
All the  of bells and whistles in the box don't seem to make Kenny feel like a happy boy compared to just running my guitar san effects into my Fender Champ ....
nice talking w you ,
 

Zargg
I started playing guitar at 19 (way to late, I know), and started with digital recording when I was 27 (Pro Audio 9). 
I knew early that I didn't have what it takes to make it as a pro guitarist, but that doesn't stop me from playing one in my studio 
I also tried to balance playing and producing for some years, and ended up not getting better at anything.
Lately I have tried to focus more on mixing / producing, and it feels like it has helped my inspiration, and joy of playing guitar again. I even took up drumming two years ago, to have another source of inspiration.
It seems like I need (fresh) input to keep inspired. And the more inspired I get, the more and better I seem to perform over time.
All the best.

Hi Ken ,
 
I started playing the guitar when I was 6 ...there was nothing instant about it ....
It may have taken about 5 or 6 years before I felt I was making any sort of progress with playing it ...
Early on I had found myself in the company of some really good players ...many of them have gone on to do some pretty nice things musically ...I was very grateful to have spent some time around those players and people ...
I found digital recording on a personal level around 2001 VIA a HD recorder , then later on VIA Cakewalks H S ...2 ..around 2005
 
At first it was fun and a Godsend ...now its a deep learning curve most of the time for me ...
FWIW, I'm still grateful to be in a position to stay in the Home Project studio game ...
The thing is , my home environment doesn't work for me as far as being able to set up my full rig and use my full gear, meaning  guitars recorded w mics via my amps  and acoustic gear....
I'm not complaining , this is the best I can do for now living in an apt w close proximity to people ....
So naturally I find my self more interested in getting better at playing the guitar  ....
I guess we all have a cross to bare ...
nice rapping w you ,
 

BobF

Jarsve
I really struggle with short concentrating span. So I cant repeat guitar tasks longer than short periods, witch makes it useless. That's my problem.

I hear ya.  By the time I get half way good playing a tune I hate it so much I never want to play it again

Hi Bob ,
 
Halfway through a tune ? I can spend hours just going from C to G
 
all the best,
 
Kenny